Foxes and Hounds game?

[Lister Farrar]

Dylan, John and I had fun jamming today. Thanks for letting us and still including us in coffee.

What’s appealing about it is seeing if you can go hard, leave enough to get on the back, recover, and pull again. When it’s harder for longer, you have to pay more attention to the pace, length of pulls, and recovery. I think John learned a lot about recognizing the warning signs of blowing up before it’s too late. (I already know I can’t hold his wheel on climbs.)

Another thing that’s interesting is this: John could pull on the hills, and I could pull on the flats (Dylan could pull everywhere!). When John figures out how to pull when he’s strong, and not cook himself when he’s not, he’ll be there in more kinds of rides and races.

So how about a game where we all get to try that? The game might be two groups (or more?), one chasing one another. Since redlining is conversation limiting, maybe we could ride in twos until Uplands gates. Start with a 1 minute gap so the hounds can still see the foxes. Then take a time gap at the normal sprint line at Ontario Street.

Rules:
no-one gets dropped.

Tips might include:
Strong riders do longer pulls, but not accelerate suddenly
Not so strong riders do shorter pulls or sit on the back until they feel better
Pay attention to your internal cues: during a hard effort, it takes a bit for lactate to get to your blood stream and to feel it in your breathing, if you pull till you feel it, it might be too late to get back on.
Signal if you’re struggling: yell “steady” if you’re about to pop, “ok” if it’s ok to put the pressure back on.
If you want to sit-on for a bit, make sure you tell the riders coming back to “get in” in front of you. You might have to say it to everyone until they know you’re there. If you don’t, you’ll find yourself back on the front…briefly!
Be patient. If you’re strong it will be tempting to pull too hard. Pull longer instead. Any pace increases should be gradual.
Come of the front and ease off. Continuing to go hard discourages the next leader, and wastes energy. Re-accelerate when you get level with the last rider.
Pull harder than you think on downhills, there’s more draft for following riders at higher speeds
Pull easier than you think on uphills, there’s less draft at lower speeds

[dreeves]

Great idea, Lister. A little bit of variety is the spice of life and continually maintaining the status quo does make Jack a dull boy! Lets try it out on Tuesday.

[Ramsey]

Great idea Lister!
Hinault / Moser in the Barrachi Trophy come to mind? Or how about the black sheep pairing of Maertens / Pollentier?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/veloarchiv ... racchi.htm

Only concern? That we don't draw the attention of PETA or some other anti-fox hunting group; if it did, even the new argyle could become retro overnight...
R
Oh yeah, how do we determine the two-ups? A Farrar / Taylor pairing seems a little stacked...

[Lister Farrar]

Thanks guys. I was thinking two groups out of whoever is there. Maybe chosen by all those wearing a colour for example, or those facing east at the meeting spot vs those facing west. (Definitely not two captains and picking teams. Oh the elementary school horror. Why the hell do you think I took up cycling!?)

Promise we won't have any dismemberment, except figuratively, to keep PETA happy.

[JohnT]

I like the idea. I had a great ride today even though I couldn't keep up at the end. Eric commented last week when he ran away with Lister and Bob that he was out of his league - but there he was! The only way to find out what you have is to take some chances. And, when a group (especially a group lacking the 'strongest guys') stays away, it's an exciting thing. But, it's something that's hard to arrange ahead of time.

But, I'm keen to try. Perhaps break-away rationing would work - you can't go with the lead group twice in a row (regardless of whether or not you missed a ride).

JT

[Lister Farrar]

Like the ride Friday, in any break, there are riders who are strong at the beginning and those who need a minute to recover, some strong on hills, others on flats, others suck till there's a sprint.

But break groups still stay together in races, even if they're not all working, and especially if there are domestiques protecting leaders. The game would help us all figure out how to pull a group if we're strong without pulling it apart, and if we are struggling, how to sit on till we feel better. It's a bit artificial because it's not just go hard till you see who's left, but I think we all want something different than the puely darwinian experience don't we?

By the way, I agree about Eric. I think what should have happened then is he should have sat on until he caught his breath, and Bob and I should have set whatever pace he could handle and no more. Ditto you at the end of the Friday ride. (Can you tell I'm looking for help in the hills John? )

[David Hill]

I am SO missing the Friday rides!!! Damn my wife and our need for a 2nd income!!!

"Sucking until the sprint"?! Oh man, that's my WHOLE RIDE!

Can we do this on Tuesdays, at least the Tuesdays I'm in town?

Sounds great, guys. Guess I'll find out in the spring (is everyone feeling sorry for. me yet?)

David

[Lister Farrar]

Well that was a bit different than I saw in my head. But it seemed most of the two groups had a hard ride by the looks of faces at the stop. What's the feeling?

As we discussed, I think refinements might include smaller groups, or at least have the leader look back for dropped riders as they swing off the front, then alert the new leader to ease off if necessary.

I think riders hurting need to think "I must be on a wheel at all times." Let a gap open and it's over. I'm still seeing riders leave gaps, or worse, doing a pull, then going straight out the back. It's not a statement about fitness if you sit on. It is a statement about skill if you leave gaps or pull then blow.

But we still love you and want you out, even if you leave gaps, pull too hard and blow up, all in the same day!

[JohnT]

I think we can learn a lot with this fox and hound game. One thing that's clear is that it isn't easy to keep track of people (a sprint start in the dark doesn't help). Perhaps a max. group size of eight and "disqualification" if you arrive at Beacon Hill with less than eight. Or, as Norm suggested (more or less), progressively larger groups towards the back - six, eight, ten, or something like that.

JT

[Brian S]

Yes Lister, things are always a little different than planned, but that was fun in an obscure way. I think we do need to decide as a group how we should do this--the premise is solid, but the message of keeping together needs to be accepted, or modified akin to a team time trial--"penalize" those who drop riders, not necessarily the ones dropped. Does sound a bit Canadian, eh? Next time, some other sap(s) need to be volunteered to bridge up to the forward group to "balance" the numbers.

[cashman]

As a BOP'er another idea would be to have an A group a B group and a C group. Somedays you show up and feel like hammering so you would go into the A group or those that really want to push the pace, the B group would be those that are there to push each other to get to the A group and the C group would be those who aspire not to be the BOP'ers however would strive to catch the B group.

With three groups or however many is chosen you can move back and forth between the groups depending on how you feel and not feel like your holding up the stronger fitter faster riders should you be put with a group of 6 sprinters (as I found out this morning )

Just my 2 bits