Cook St Village Bike Lanes

[sailor]

Even after all the coffees we have bought Mocha House owner is fighting bike lanes on Cook St.

https://www.facebook.com/GVCCbc/?fref=nf

[John D]

Personally, I've never been a fan of the coffee at Cook Street Moka...one reason our monthly TSC Exec meetings are now held elsewhere. This would make an even bigger reason for me not to frequent their establishment.

J.

[Paul C.]

Just for clarification.....Cook st Mocha House and the owner, who also owns the Beagle pub , is a seperate business from Shoal point.....and I believe that thay like us.

I am going to a meeting tonight about Cook st. bike lanes.At this point I am not sure if they are necessary or worth the expense.
Could we use the same budget money to enforce using helmets and lights?
I feel a Tripleshot bike lane discussion is brewing.

[leftcoaster]

(I’ve never been known to hold things back, so....)

A business owner, and from the sounds of it more than one are involved, is concerned because designated bike lanes on a narrow, busy and congested street will mean a loss of parking spots and impair his/their ability to earn a living and for that, we should boycott his business on ‘principle’.

The business owners on Cook Street are very concerned that since parking availability is already an issue impacting their customer base, the removal of a number of spaces will exacerbate the problem. Fair comment. Not all customers walk or cycle and many park in front of Mocha House and grab a coffee and pastry on their way to work.

In my, and many other businesses, the first 80%+ of sales covers expenses and we live on the remaining 20%. A small decline in revenue can have a significant impact on our income. We also pay roughly triple the residential rate in property taxes. Yet if we lobby against a city plan that may potentially erode our incomes, we run the risk of boycott by the ill-informed.

I find it rather egregious that some would suggest a boycott of private sector business owners that are simply trying to earn a living in a fair, open and honest way.

David Brockmann

[John D]

I find it rather egregious that some would suggest a boycott...

Re-reading the previous messages in this thread, I see no suggestion of anything resembling a boycott, and certainly nothing that could be considered "egregious". I don't frequent the joint in question because I just don't like their coffee. That it seems they are also opposed to bike lanes (for whatever reason) merely decreases any incentive for me to spend my money there.

J.

[Rolf]

Hi Dave,

As a business owner you know that two of the intangible things people look for from the businesses they support—beyond the goods or services they procure—are (1) a feeling of being valued as a customer, and (2) a sense that the business and its owners share the customer's values. These intangibles arguably take on greater importance when the purchase decision is part of a weekly routine in the company of good people who enjoy a communal activity that actively implicates these values—in this case: the awesomeness of cycling.

The venue for our post-ride coffee bears witness to a faintly holy experience: we sit near each other and share a euphoric high of post-sprint endorphins. When we're riding, we're shoulder-to-shoulder, fortified by our gear and the steadfastness of the group, united against the wind; but coffee is where we shed our helmets, gloves, and glasses, where we let down our hair. We refocus our gaze from each other's wheels to each other's eyes and become individuals again. It's where we share ourselves as people, not just ride-mates.

Our post-ride venue is also where we replenish our spent bodies with coffee and food, purchased from a business owner who we are now made to feel (1) doesn't value our regular business, and (2) doesn't share our values. So if the coffee's better across the street anyway, I'd say we demonstrate any shared commitment we may have to the promotion of cycling infrastructure by voting with our feet.

As for your remonstrations on property taxes and your bitter contrasting of a public servant's entitlements with the plight of the woe-begone sole proprietor, I really don't see how they relate to the issue of whether the Village should have a bike lane, and where we should get our post-ride coffee.

Thanks to the sacrifices of our forefathers and foremothers (and Donald Trump's followers, if you believe them) we live in a free consumer society where our political and social values can guide our purchase decisions. Likewise, our relatively free economy enables capital and services to flow to where they meet demand.

Just as a business owner is entitled to take a principled stand on a city planning issue, we're entirely free to discuss the issue amongst ourselves (hopefully respectfully) and decide if we'd like to take our regular coffee and food purchases elsewhere because we find our own principles differ. Ad hominem abuse does little to further the discussion and just disrupts the rather precious harmony we've nurtured among our wee group of cycling enthusiasts.

Seeya on the bike,

Rolf

[leftcoaster]

Rolf,

(1) doesn't value our regular business, and (2) doesn't share our values.

I have never felt anything but welcome at Mokka House for our post ride coffee. And I politely challenge you to indicate if you or anyone else has felt uncomfortable at Mokka House.

The owner of Mokka House is concerned a bike lane on Cook Street would limit parking options for his non-cycling/walking clientele and prefers the bike lane on the much quieter Vancouver Street. His position is very reasonable and he feels his livelihood is at stake.

I just checked the back of my Tripleshot kits and noticed the Mokka House logo (baby blues and black & whites. I never bought the black-backed stealth kit so don't know about that one) so I'm confused as to why you would suggest the owner of Moccha House doesn't value our business. He was our sponsor.

He is in a catch-22 position - try and understand his position. Push for the bike lane a block over to accommodate his customers who drive and be judged by some of the more outspoken cyclists, or risk losing the drivers.

Take a deep breath,

David

[Rolf]

Thanks, Dave. This is almost as much fun as riding.

Your obvious empathy for these business owners and your explication of their perspective helps. For those that only see the bike lane as a threat and not an opportunity, it's certainly a tough spot to be in.

But I want to live in a city that does everything it can to promote cycling, even at the expense of drivers and business-owners who don't want the same thing, or who don't want to adapt.

I don't think anyone's suggesting Moka House is an unwelcoming place to visit. I felt unvalued, and that I hold different values, while watching this clip of the Cook St. Moka House owner mobilizing the community against improved cycling infrastructure.

I'm also pretty sure TSC has only ever had Moka House Shoal Pt. as a sponsor. The Farm Team got a little love from the Cook St. franchise when we first had our jerseys made up—but that was short-lived.

[leftcoaster]

Hi Rolf,

There are many things I want to have too, but if it means a potential loss of someone else's livelihood, I think all other alternatives should be fully explored. We tend to be pretty cavalier when changes will significantly cost other people, but not negatively affect ourselves.

[barton bourassa]

Great discussion! One that has been taking place in many communities around the world! Might I suggest reading Bikenomics: How Bicycling Can Save The Economy, http://microcosmpublishing.com/catalog/books/4418

A great read!

Make sure you let your council know how you feel about bike lanes!

Barton.

[Bosie]

Business, by its nature, needs to evolve and adapt to be successful.
In terms of the planet, safety and overall population health, its difficult to argue that improving cycling infrastructure is not in the populations interest.
So count me amongst those who will be taking my custom elsewhere:)

[Fozzy]

Interesting!!
The layout of the proposed cycle lane will replace parking spaces and to add further complications, the centre turning lane will be removed, negating any facility for deliveries. Hmm!
I am not sure whether this is the best option. Cycle infrastructure must be designed to provide a place where your average cyclist will want to feel safe. The vision of the City is to promote cycling to non-cyclists, who will definitely want to feel safe, which is why it is probably better for it to be situated on Vancouver St.
Now we as a club are not typical commuters or beginners, and are used to riding amongst traffic that travels at far higher speeds than they do on Cook St.
Ok, their coffee might suck (to some), but I have never felt unwelcome in the shop. So for me, whether the owner is opposed to the location of the infrastructure is immaterial. My 2 cents.

[Greg F]

I for one am curious why Cook St Village would be a top priority for bike lanes. Granted, I've only been biking through there a handful of times, but in our few months living nearby, it seemed quite safe and accommodating for cyclists already. The frequency of crosswalks (and tendency of pedestrians to saunter across them without looking) already slows down traffic to a non-threatening speed.

For my 2c, the better option would be to start the bike lane further up Cook St as it exits the village and transitions to four lanes. This section is already tight because any cyclist on the road prevents two lanes of traffic flowing anyway, and there's much less business affected as there's already no parking there, as I recall.

[Louise Wallace]

I agree with Greg. I was thinking the same thing.
Louise ( not his wife )

[Paul C.]

This is a great topic for us...it seems.
And I am happy we have a choice of 4 coffee shops in CSV. I personnaly find an Americano at every coffee shop is the same and I really enjoy sitting at the Cook street patio with Tripleshot and that other group Wednesday A.M. It gets crowded there in the summer so if a few people go to Starbucks that works for me.

So I attended the CSV bike meeting Monday night. About 30 people. Mostly business owners. No gvcc, councillors,or John Lutton.
There were 7 paid people from city hall including 2 " Bictoria" consultants.

There is $7.75 million in the budget for Victoria bike infrastructure, including, shockingly to me, $2 to 3 million for CSV.

THE MERCHAMTS SEEM TO LIKE CYCLISTS AND BIKE LANES.There suggestion is to have them on Vancouver street.
Lots of banter and heated discussion.No conclusions or action steps.

On Friday Lisa Helps will be at CSV Activity Center for a 1 to 2:30 meeting about this and other city issues.

[David Hill]

Great discussion... and glad to see the tone and rancour has remained at "Democrat" level, and not "Republican" or as bad as "Trump/Primordial"...

I think the city and region should focus energy and funding on bike lanes that help move people through commuting arteries and difficult or dangerous-to-navigate areas in and out of downtown, rather than in the outer fringe areas such as CSV (or other similar areas). We need as a starting point to encourage and support individuals and families to choose cycling in and around the city. The wide, cyclist and pedestrian friendly roads and sidewalks of CSV do not discourage cycling. The fact that there is some very limited street parking actually helps people like me choose to do some of our shopping and dining in that part of town, rather than carrying on to the asphalt havens of the larger shopping venues. (Okay, places that sell wine - you got me!)

I'd rather see an expansion of the bike lanes along Fort Street where kids are riding to and from school, or up Cook Street north of Fairfield, which is treacherous as all get out.

$2-3 million for CSV seems like an exercise of gilding the lily; cyclists already go there and love it, so it might seem like an easy decision. But the consequence of using this solution in search of a problem could (seems to) be the creation of an unnecessary conflict between "we cyclists" and the rest of the world... I won't stop going to CSV or the coffee shops and/or pub if they don't instal a bike lane. I'll just pull my bike into one of the several large bike rack areas, find a place for my wet helmet and gloves, and smugly sip my $4 coffee / $8 pint, as usual, and be grateful that the city is using my excessive tax $ to build necessary bike-friendly infrastructure where it's needed...

[barton bourassa]

Cook St Village is not an outer fringe. I don't think the business owners would like it to be known as outer fringe! It is a very busy area from the waterfront all the way to Quadra. Bike lanes are essential. they don't necessarily have to be separated but well marked with ample room from parked cars. This is an important route with a lot of traffic; pedestrian, motorized, runners, cyclists of all levels.

There has always been a great hew and cry and wren-ting of clothing and pulling out hair any time there is talk of precious parking being taken away. Our communities, all of them, should be walk-able first and foremost! The only discussion that should be taking place is what we want the bike lanes to look like. "If" is no longer a viable option. "When" and what they look like is the conversation. We really need to move away from our gas guzzling pollution spewing addiction to internal combustion motorization to get from place to place. I am amazed that we are still having this conversation!! Have we learned nothing in the last 40 years of ever more expanding suburbs and roadways?!!??

Build it and watch the critical mass grow!

Barton Build Bike Lanes on Every Street Bourassa!!!

[leftcoaster]

I'd rather see an expansion of the bike lanes along Fort Street where kids are riding to and from school, or up Cook Street north of Fairfield, which is treacherous as all get out.

I whole heartedly agree. I never feel unsafe cycling in Cook Street Village, either myself or with my kids in tow - extra cross walks, reduced speed - I find nothing wrong with the status quo. Bike lanes on Cook Street from Fairfield to Pandora (or slightly further) would have my whole-hearted support. There are two lanes each way for that stretch of street and plenty of room for bike lanes.

Reading that $2.3 million has been allocated to Cook Street Village which is one of the safer places to ride seems misdirected. I think a better use of our tax dollars would be to start with the unsafe areas first.

[David Hill]

That was my point.. I would LOVE to see bike lanes pretty much everywhere, and as much encouragement to get people walking and cycling (or otherwise moving without carbon (frames and water bottle-cages notwithstanding)) as possible.

I believe it is just a matter of time before there will be a greater acceptance of cycling in Victoria, and the creation of dedicated commuter and riding lanes around town, and more infrastructure to help people get out of their cars should be a priority of our community leaders. This will be aided by putting lanes and signage in areas that will have the largest volume of cyclist in areas that need them most (as a start), or in areas that will help clear up congestion, or otherwise help create social change. I haven't seen before that CSV is in NEED of bike lanes, whereas other parts of the city clearly are.

Given that both the city's money and energy are limited, for now I think it would make sense to focus on moving people safely and soundly in areas that are in greater need. Once people are comfortable riding into and around town, they will continue to choose cycling as a preferred mode of transportation, and create greater momentum towards even more bike lanes or other safety measures.

This is a great discussion for fuelling thoughtful reflection, courteous discourse and - hopefully some sort of bizarre computer art from Steve Lund! (can you Strava draw a community meeting?)

[Alan]

Great spittle-generating discussion!
I have to admit to feeling a lot of "asphalt greed" and that if the city is opening the possibility to convert more car space to bike space, I say we jump on that and we jump fast. When you look at the great cities of the world and how they've incorporated bike lanes, you realize how civilized, clean and efficient transportation can be. And you also realize, for a city that has had some successes with cycling and declares itself the "Biking Capital of Canada" Victoria's cycling infrastructure feels like Detroit in the 1970's.

Back in the early 2000's I was on the city's Bicycle Advisory Committee for 2 terms and was there when the city coughed up a measly $250,000 or so to convert Fort Street to accommodating bike lanes. Oh, you should have seen the rancour, the irate letters to the editor, the rigid self-righteousness on both sides of the issue! It was precedent-setting because it did something that had never been done before: taken away parking and gave it to cyclists! Even though City Hall got shat upon by numerous irate car drivers they held their ground and did the right thing. What won the day is cyclists saying: you have the opportunity to do the right thing, so do it.

And let's not discuss the utter waste on boondoggle public infrastructure projects where this piddly bike lane funding is barely a rounding error in the unneeded Sewage/ Bridge fiascos that we'll be paying for to the end of our lifetimes.