Tripleshot Cycling

Roland wrote:Even if we do succeed and build a health community of the island at the C level, there is almost nowhere to progress too. Most of the time, girls will get stuck in Cat 1/2/3/4 races with pros and guys will get stuck in Cat 3/4 races with the likes of Josh and Shawn. It was a mistake for Cycling BC to get rid of Cat 5. To get full fields at the Cat 4/5 level means traveling to Washington state.

I dunno. I think there are more rungs on the ladder than there were. For kids, there's high school racing, then clubs like TS (well, one anyway), academies like Steve's, then a jump to VCL B, then maybe some Island mtb and cross, then another jump to BC Cup, then VCL A, etc. If we added C races here, and maybe a BC Youth Series event (below BC Cup level) , that would be two holes filled in.

While trying to fix a broken system is an admirable goal, I think you need to be honest with the kids coming in. Unless they are willing to suffer getting dropped, maybe for a long time, then road racing probably isn't for them.

I don't think we're misleading the kids (and C's); we're advocating for them. We can see that with a little effort, new juniors can progress quite well through the TS groups. With a C race, they'll make the next jump.

One other factor, is that just because we all made it over the barriers to get involved, doesn't mean that's the way it should stay. In fact, it's arguable that all the folks who can make it over the barriers are already in, and if we want it to grow, we have to do something different. And TS is proof of that.

I thought I would quickly throw my 2 cents in on a part of this discussion. I think that it is important that we evaluate what we call “racing” as in my view there are at least 2 different types at play here.

First, I also really understand the desire to “race” meaning to be an active protagonist throughout the whole time period and maybe, just maybe, if things work out, and I am smart, I get to take a stab at the sprint. It could also be if I get dropped but somehow manage to hook up with one or two others and we then bang around the course ultimately duking it out for bragging rights amongst our little pack – who cares that we are so deep no one records the finish position we know who “won” our sprint.

I don’t know what to call this but for the moment I will call this “externally competitive”. What I mean is that people who are externally competitive are looking around the field and judging their race off how they perform in relation to the others in the field.

There is another form of “racing” - its the one that I (mostly) engage in (and to be fair is about the only form that I engaged in last year given my ridiculous attempt to take my B+ ability and shove it into an A race) – the “internally competitive” race. What I do at, for example, Newton Heights is start the race with the A’s. Half way up the first hill (so on lap ONE!) I get dropped. Every time I cross the finish line I press the lap button on my Garmin – this gives me my lap time and I shoot to keep the laps even (or even try to better them each lap). At some point I get caught by the B’s (and dropped at the hill) and then I get lapped by the A’s. If all goes SUPER well the A’s are pretty flogged so I can stick with them for a little bit but out of all the Newton Heights we did last year I think I crossed the line alone at all but one. My "Race" at Newton Heights is against myself and my last lap times - if anyone thinks I am racing against one of the Cat 1/2 whippets they are crazy. I race for my own performance independent of what Marcel or Shawn can do.

So what does all this mean? To me it is about defining what racing is so as to ensure that I can still have “fun” and enjoy a “race” even though I am not capable of being competitive at these races. Now don’t get me wrong if we get the Sidney TT back I will be full bore Externally Competitive but that is because the course suits my strengths.

One of the beauties of road racing is the variety of course we should be utilizing. Look at Roland then look at me. The idea that he and I are going to compete with each other is in many respects ludicrous. I don’t want Roland slowing up for me on a hilly course and (to be honest) I am not all that willing to slow up for him on a pancake flat course. I guess what I am trying, in a really round about way, to say is that racing isn’t always about how you do relative to others. If all you do is measure yourself against others you will never really accomplish anything as you cannot control their performance.

To me the beauty of the VCL races (and the reason that I pay my $10 to ride with a pack for 3-4 minutes then spend an hour alone) is that it gives me a focused opportunity to perform. My performance is ALWAYS tied solely to me. My results take into account other people but what really matters is my performance. Was I hydrated? Did I eat? Was I tactically wise? Were my lap times consistent? Did I stay focused? Did I bust my arse?

I set little goals for every race and after each race I have to look back to see if I achieved them. Because of this I can (if I play my cards right) “win” every single race I participate in as I have chosen to define winning outside of the results sheet.

Ok, so enough of my diatribe. What I think the C’s (or anyone considering starting racing) should be doing is recognizing that you are going to get your buts kicked mercilessly in every race you attend that has someone in it that is stronger/smarter than you. Similarly, if Josh or Shawn rode B they would win every single time without having to work too hard. In every race there are faster and slower people and the results can be (big picture) predicted before the start. So instead of trying to set up a situation where everyone can ride together and everyone can sprint at the end I recommend some combo of C race and jumping in at the deep end with the B’s.

I look back last year and some of the best performances I saw at the VCL came from Jen. She had a goal of getting dropped later and later – and she busted her ass to accomplish it. Similarly how freaking awesome was Katie’s goal of “last but not lapped” in cross? If you are going to try out racing I think your goals should be about YOUR performance as measured against yourself ONLY. Don't get me wrong I am all over sticking targets to people's backs but use that as a way to motivate yourself to get over that hill or hang in a bit longer. Dont use other people's presence as a criteria for participation - after all their result doesnt say anything at all about your performance!

A “race” is what YOU decide it is. For Josh, Adam, Shawn it can be about results (which is actually really more about execution of tactics) but for the rest of us it ought to be about discrete goals that we try to accomplish within the broader context of a VCL Race – so:

 Finishing (I hate the Roadies who get dropped and then give up as they can’t “win”)
 last but not lapped;
 me making it to Lap 2 at Newton with the Big Boys
 maintaining race effort (?90% of max hr) for whole race
 lap times getting better week over week
 others

When I hear people talk about “real” racing I often think that they don’t know what that is. A “real” race is an opportunity to put the skills and training you have been doing to the test at a specific location for a specific period. It isn’t really about the podium (or even about the other people). It’s about having to perform on the day, at the place and performing is 100% up to you.

If you are only thinking about being Externally Competitive, unless you are going to be at the pointy end of your race, you are setting yourself up for disappointment. On the other hand if you approach races from an Internally Competitive perspective you have a real opportunity to measure your performance and subsequently make changes to your training etc and go out and keep improving (and maybe even have a TON of fun doing so).

Peter

Agree with almost everything you say. At least for adults, and those with experience in sport.

It's a bit different for kids and beginners. I think it's important to have something external to compare yourself for those people. The rise of the participation event is all about that. Triathlons, 10kms, marathons, grandfondos, ski loppets, are about having some external competiton at your level .

You are also an extraordinarly focussed and determined person Peter. We're inspired by that and all strive to match you, but I suspect most newer participants will fall somewhat short, at first. How many of us started at the level you did and persevered to your level today? Not many.

What I think the C’s (or anyone considering starting racing) should be doing is recognizing that you are going to get your buts kicked mercilessly in every race you attend that has someone in it that is stronger/smarter than you.

I don't know. This sounds way too Burnside'ish to me. Big, successful sports like hockey and soccer have 1 year age group competition every year from 5 to 17. Even xc ski has 2 year age groups. We have "get ready to get your butt kicked"? This ain't gonna look like cage fighting if we want it to grow.

I actually struggle a bit with this:

Lister Farrar wrote: ... I think it's important to have something external to compare yourself for those people. The rise of the participation event is all about that. Triathlons, 10kms, marathons, grandfondos, ski loppets, are about having some external competiton at your level .
....

My worry is that what it does is encourages those who are able to make a FAVOURABLE external comparison while discouraging those that make an unfavourable one. That is why I really pound on the idea of individually tailored goals that are NOT results oriented.

Second, I dont really think it matters how small you slice your groups there is always "better" and "worse" performers based on results. Beat is beat is beat. I try to take the result out of it entirely.

Third, I dont think that the rise of participation is linked to external competiton. I actually think that the succes of triathlon is exactly the opposite. I think it is about a bunch of people racing themselves at the same time. Individuals with individual performance goals all taking to the water together.....

I pretty much agree with Peter on this, being a guy that would get his butt KICKED on the Caleb Pike races, I had to adjust my goals for racing.
- try to stay with the pack as long as possible
- how long could I go without getting lapped
- putting in a full effort (even when you're so far out the race it's easy to just do a light spin until the race is over)

But having said that, it's also fun to be in the action, even though my windsor park race didn't end all that nicely for me, being in the C group made me confident that I could stay with the group (maybe even be in contention for a win). I probably had the most "fun" in that race even though I walked away with some broken ribs.

So what I think a main key to keeping these fun for the younger racers is variation, I will get absolutely destroyed on a hilly course, but on a pancake flat crit or a TT, I feel that I could compete. Everyone brings in different strengths, I think we could help out the VCL races by adding some variation in courses.

I totally agree with Peter. I'm always the type to throw myself in over my head and "internalize" my results. If anyone thinks I can hang with the cat 1/2s on Newton, they are nuts. On my best days I might be able to keep bruce or shawn in sight on a steep course like that, but even that is unlikely. Those races were just an exercise in suffering for me. On a flat sprint finish, I can't match Gavins acceleration at the line. I can't TT as well as Peter. Caleb is definitely WAY more suited to my strengths, short hard power climbs and a high speed uphill power sprint to the finish. A 100km+ or so rolling road race with long lower grade climbs would be best suited to me. Everyone has different strengths. It's hard to try to cater to them all.

But, just to clarify...
By "real race experience", I'm referring to the synergistic experience of riding in a pack and being pulled along by the collective power of the group on a flat course, the sound of everyones gears working together, the motivation of having people around you and the ease of travelling at speeds you could never accomplish on your own.

I think that's where road racing has the real power to hook people into the sport and keep them there over triathlon or running, etc. That feeling is FREAKING FUN!!! If we can figure out a way to give people more of that experience for their entry fee early on in their cycling careers, instead of sticking to the same old mindset that everyone has to" pay their dues" and ride solo off the back for their first year of raod racing. I think tTHAT will keep them coming back, and the novice races could grow in popularity. The "pay your dues", internal goals model has been done for years in road racing, and is reflected by the lack of turnout in races, especially when compared to the enormous popularity of the grandfondos we are starting to see. Obviously there is a large untapped cycling population that isn't attracted to road racing in it's current format.

From that came the idea of having "A" rolling marshalls who at least try to keep people in the pack as long as possible.

Peter's advice is excellent for those who have made a commitment to themselves that they are going to stick with road racing.

It also further illustrates the barrier that new racers must make it over in order to progress in road racing. As long as it's accepted that most new racers will have to suffer off the back by themselves for a good portion of a season (or longer...), then new racers will continue to find other things to do and other disciplines to race in.

I raced my first 'cross race 4 weeks after buying my first "real" bike. I had a blast. Since then I have also raced TT, Track, Cross Country, and hope to try SuperD races this year too. All these cycling disciplines have Beginner categories, and you know that there will always be other Beginner racers signed up. The courses are sometimes modified to make them "Beginner Friendly". These disciplines do a good job of communicating to newbies that they want you to come try the sport, and want you to have fun doing it because otherwise, most people won't stick it out.

Both the dedicated C race and the regulated B race with A mentorship idea sound like good ideas, but I think it will take a while for C racers to show up in decent numbers given the historical barriers. It will take a commitment on the part of the race hosts to not cancel or combine C races when there's a low turnout. If people start to realize the C race often gets combined with B because not enough Cs show up, they will stop coming. Just look at Women's Cat 4

I don't even know what a ski loppet is. Sounds like an imaginary beast, like a unicorn or a narwhal.

I like Josh's ability assessment and course selection. A race course for everyone... not quite. I found that the VCL lost a great all-rounder course when they sunsetted the Latoria circuit. It was too long to call a crit, but otherwise reasonably flat, one tricky corner, and that was it. Great confidence builder course, with a slight uphill finish to tax the legs at the end.

The series also lacks a true crit course. There's nothing like a weekly crit series to build speed, tactics and skills - especially cornering skills. The Achilles heel of the series is lack of a weekly criterium.

If anyone, anyone has any ideas for a circuit that could be either a 4km road course, like Latoria was, or a true crit course.. 4 basic 90-degree corners will suffice, please share. Perhaps a contest in the vain of 'Where's Waldo?' ... 'Where's Crit Course?' would be great.

A criterium course should ideally be 800m to 2km or so, though longer can work too. I think UBC's Wed night crit course is 2.4km, and it works.

Roland wrote:I don't even know what a ski loppet is. Sounds like an imaginary beast, like a unicorn or a narwhal.

It is, but more like a giant endless snake:



The drafting is awesome though.

4827north wrote:I like Josh's ability assessment and course selection. A race course for everyone... not quite. I found that the VCL lost a great all-rounder course when they sunsetted the Latoria circuit. It was too long to call a crit, but otherwise reasonably flat, one tricky corner, and that was it. Great confidence builder course, with a slight uphill finish to tax the legs at the end.

The series also lacks a true crit course. There's nothing like a weekly crit series to build speed, tactics and skills - especially cornering skills. The Achilles heel of the series is lack of a weekly criterium.

If anyone, anyone has any ideas for a circuit that could be either a 4km road course, like Latoria was, or a true crit course.. 4 basic 90-degree corners will suffice, please share. Perhaps a contest in the vain of 'Where's Waldo?' ... 'Where's Crit Course?' would be great.

A criterium course should ideally be 800m to 2km or so, though longer can work too. I think UBC's Wed night crit course is 2.4km, and it works.

You must have been a good boy last year. Your wish is coming true. Shaillie Sanbrooks of Russ Hays is proposing 5 races at the Luxton circuit. Flat 4 corners, 1.something km long.

The road course might be a little longer in coming...

I can't say I've read all these posts but is there merit in thinking about having a blue kit and a black kit TS team in a selected race or more where the goal would be to serve as domestiques for a different set of younger riders. Sort of a race within a race that is organized by the club. I would be happy to participate as I would learn more about racing, assuming the younger riders don't just ride off away from me too.

#74

plawless wrote:What I think the C’s (or anyone considering starting racing) should be doing is recognizing that you are going to get your buts kicked mercilessly in every race you attend that has someone in it that is stronger/smarter than you

I think we all share the same mindset that a good old fashioned thrashing is likely to motivate us to train harder so it doesn't happen again. What Lister is getting at is that the average 15 year old may not have this mindset. Obviously, the younglings that show up regularly for our rides are exceptions, but I don't think they are representative of the age group as a whole.

I don't think the road scene has the same relaxed image that you see in the offroad community, so it is likely intimidating to someone new (an image that I think TS is doing a fine job at attempting to dispel btw) As a result, getting the younger types to show up is a challenge, particularly if they have no club affiliation. Add in getting dropped, lapped and repeatedly crossing the line alone while everyone is watching to the mix and it makes it that much worse. To the average teen who may be somewhat self conscious to start with, it becomes a negative experience rather than a motivational one.

Marcus wrote:I can't say I've read all these posts but is there merit in thinking about having a blue kit and a black kit TS team in a selected race or more where the goal would be to serve as domestiques for a different set of younger riders. Sort of a race within a race that is organized by the club. I would be happy to participate as I would learn more about racing, assuming the younger riders don't just ride off away from me too.

#74

That could be a really fun game Marcus. The blue train for Brenna, the black train for Alex kinda thing. Perhaps better on a flatter course where tactics are more important vs hillier one where it's more of a survival game.

FYI
The TS exec is looking into creating a novice/C race series Monday nights at Western Speedway. The idea is to offer a race for people that are starting road riding, younger, older, moving up, or moving down in their training. Seems like it might be easier than shoe-horning C races onto the existing VCL circuits and getting over the historic poor turnout there for C's. (There would still be C races at Windsor, according to Geoff Pendrel)

We also want a few Wednesday VCL races there for A's and B's to balance the hillier courses in the VCL.

It's a flat ~600 m oval. We haven't ridden it, but it's been used in the past for cycling. It should be good for learning pack skills and drafting, without corners or hills to split it up. We have asked for Monday evenings for 6 weeks in April-May, then maybe more if demand is there. Western says it's possible, but they are crunching their schedule now. So tell your C friends to watch for an announcement and ride if they want it to thrive.

We think it should appeal to anyone from TS (other than A's and stronger B's, but who would be encouraged to ride as coaches), triathletes, runners looking to try road racing, high school kids, masters.

Ideas discussed at coffee:

• Clinic first (drafting mainly), then a race or races.
  A few shorter races, so you can make mistakes, rest, then try again.
  Neutralized first (#?) laps to let beginners settle down from the panic of getting their foot in, and feel the pack-love thing
  A and B riders as coaches/hole fillers/group organizers
  Snacks and bike repair service to encourage new riders to socialize, avoid mechanicals
  Major promo effort to get the next wave of people into road racing. They are probably not current club members. Facebook, posters, Bring-A-Friend theme

Thoughts?

If we get permission from Western, we'll need people to:

• do registration (numbers, pins, sign-up list, Cycling BC license sales),(tent?), tables
  A and B riders as coach riders
  to apply for the sanction from Cycling BC as a club series, submit forms, insurance certificates issued to Western, etc.
  design a poster, put them up
  judges and recorders for finishes (if we keep track of results)
  mechanics for minor tune-up services
  snack collection, distribution

Anyone interested?

I'm interested in volunteering. I love this idea!

I'll be there helping out.

And just so it's in writing somewhere, Paul is bringing oranges.

Lister Farrar wrote:

4827north wrote:I like Josh's ability assessment and course selection. A race course for everyone... not quite. I found that the VCL lost a great all-rounder course when they sunsetted the Latoria circuit. It was too long to call a crit, but otherwise reasonably flat, one tricky corner, and that was it. Great confidence builder course, with a slight uphill finish to tax the legs at the end.

The series also lacks a true crit course. There's nothing like a weekly crit series to build speed, tactics and skills - especially cornering skills. The Achilles heel of the series is lack of a weekly criterium.

If anyone, anyone has any ideas for a circuit that could be either a 4km road course, like Latoria was, or a true crit course.. 4 basic 90-degree corners will suffice, please share. Perhaps a contest in the vain of 'Where's Waldo?' ... 'Where's Crit Course?' would be great.

A criterium course should ideally be 800m to 2km or so, though longer can work too. I think UBC's Wed night crit course is 2.4km, and it works.

You must have been a good boy last year. Your wish is coming true. Shaillie Sanbrooks of Russ Hays is proposing 5 races at the Luxton circuit. Flat 4 corners, 1.something km long.

The road course might be a little longer in coming...

Spoke too soon. Luxton is dug up (or soon will be) and won't be repaved until late in the season, so it's off the schedule for now. On other hand, Western Speedway is on, so there's a flat fast place to learn to ride in a bunch.

Draft VCL calendar from last night's planning meeting. To be confirmed Feb 2.

Highlights:

• 2 new organizers: Schwalbe CC, Oak bay Bikes/Wheelers are back. New are Russ Hays and Tripleshot (yay!), plus one back from 2009, Sidney Velo, hoping to have their TT's again.
  Dedicated C races: 6 Mondays in the spring, at Western Speedway. No hills, no corners, lots of short races.
  Two Wednesday Speedway races. Watch out all you climbers, the rouleurs are coming!
  New road course: once a month Russ Hays is hosting at Klahanie and Latoria (plus Dickerson, Happy Valley. 2.? km, rolling. Watch all you rouleurs, the climbers are coming!)
  Two Windsor Park races, with C races.

See details:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... qcpWu4nBCw

That looks great Lister!! lots of variety for everyone, can't wait for the new season to start