New racers: Interest in VCL 'C' group, or modified 'B'?

[AlW]

Pretty sure the roads off Wilfert are Armed Forces but there have been races there in the past. I remember doing a crit in the parking lot around the warehouse in the mid 90's (I think that was the DND crit that sylvan mentioned in a earlier post). Can't remember who organized it though.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=d&source=s ... 7&t=h&z=18

[Josh.E]

Anybody know what the roads are, just off of Wilfert in Colwood? Armed forces? Looks like a good loop could happen in there.

I'm pretty sure that's DND.

This looks like a fairly quiet road:

I was just checking this one out on street view. It looks pretty ideal for a training crit, soft corners, fairly smooth pavement. Only one corner that looks like it would really need to be marshalled. Even a parking lot that could be a staging area.

[Josh.E]

There's the industrial area just off the bay st bridge too. 580m. Most of the businesses would probably be closed if it was held after 6pm. That one would be nice and close to attract people out. Not sure about the quality of the road on the corner near budget steel.

[Lister Farrar]

Cool. Good access from the goose too.

Anyone got a street sweeper operator friend?

[AlW]

Hate to be the party pooper, but.....

The "fairly quiet road" in the above posts is also military property (belmont park). I would think any activities without sufficient permission would likely draw unwanted attention from the MPs.


As per the industrial park:

Not sure about the quality of the road on the corner near budget steel.

I've been thru there a few times dropping off scrap steel. Calling it a road would be a stretch. Not sure how old the google streetview pic is, but don't think much has changed.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s ... .6,,0,5.81

[Roland]

Hate to be the party pooper, but.....
The "fairly quiet road" in the above posts is also military property (belmont park). I would think any activities without sufficient permission would likely draw unwanted attention from the MPs.

If we do this crit, it's going to be completely legit, so yes, all appropriate permission will be acquired. That said, if it's DND land, but not in a restricted area, it may be easier to get permission that from the city. Then again, maybe not. Who would we even contact?

I've heard mixed reports on why the DND crit was cancelled, both increased security after 9/11 and that somebody crashed into the warehouse.

[Lister Farrar]

The story I heard was that a car got onto the circuit, it was hit, some riders were injured and lost equipment, and the fuss got it all shut down. I don't know if it was the drivers fault, the marshals fault, if marshals were there, and whether the sanction and insurance was in place (eg protecting DND). I would imagine all those things should have been, and if they weren't, it would make anyone from the base dealing with cycling nervous unless it looked like we really had all those ducks lined up.

[Lister Farrar]

Hate to be the party pooper, but.....

The "fairly quiet road" in the above posts is also military property (belmont park). I would think any activities without sufficient permission would likely draw unwanted attention from the MPs.


As per the industrial park:

Not sure about the quality of the road on the corner near budget steel.

I've been thru there a few times dropping off scrap steel. Calling it a road would be a stretch. Not sure how old the google streetview pic is, but don't think much has changed.

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s ... .6,,0,5.81

It's all how you look at it. Label it "Gritty Urban Cross" and it starts to look pretty good. Nothing like garbage truck effluent to sharpen up those bike handling skills.

Then again, for C's, maybe not so much.

[Lister Farrar]

(spam flood alert: sorry all)

Here's our agent in France's take. Underlined bit says it all. (My underlining.)

From: Brenna Pauly [mailto:*****]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 2:13 PM
To: Lister Farrar
Subject: Re: opinions on midweek road races wanted

hi Lister,

as you know already I am interested in the races. I have no strong preference in which way they go, be it a c race by itself or the other format they are trying in Ottawa. All I know is that I want to be a part of a race that I am acctually racing in.
thanks

[Roland]

I want to be a part of a race that I am acctually racing in

So cyclocross or mountain biking it is then.

[AlW]

The story I heard was that a car got onto the circuit, it was hit, some riders were injured and lost equipment, and the fuss got it all shut down. I don't know if it was the drivers fault, the marshals fault, if marshals were there, and whether the sanction and insurance was in place (eg protecting DND). I would imagine all those things should have been, and if they weren't, it would make anyone from the base dealing with cycling nervous unless it looked like we really had all those ducks lined up.

That's the gist of it. Apparently, the car belonged to a commissionaire. He wasn't aware that a race was on and during his rounds, moved a barrier and drove on to the circuit. A group came around a corner of the building and hit the car with a couple of riders getting hurt pretty bad. There were subsequent attempts to ressurrect the race but DND declined to give permission. To bad, since it was a great venue.

[Lister Farrar]

I want to be a part of a race that I am acctually racing in

So cyclocross or mountain biking it is then.

Why do you say that?

[AlW]

It's all how you look at it. Label it "Gritty Urban Cross" and it starts to look pretty good. Nothing like garbage truck effluent to sharpen up those bike handling skills.

Proof of tetanus vaccination would have to be a requirement.....

[Roland]

I want to be a part of a race that I am acctually racing in

So cyclocross or mountain biking it is then.

Why do you say that?

The barrier to entry is far lower to both cross & mtb, which attracts a far wider range of abilities. As well, since both sports are more about individual performance, there is no equivalent of 'getting dropped.' In a mountain bike race, the experience is very similar weather you are first, last or somewhere in the middle. Occasionally, since all categories may race together, you don't even know where you are in your race until it ends. You just give it 100% until the end.

Unlike road racing, where if you are 15 seconds too slow up the first hill, your day is done.

[Lister Farrar]

I know you were joking, but if that were true, ie. that road is simply cutthroat, Tripleshot wouldn't be the success it is. Getting dropped for a year, and sending beginners to mtb or cross is the equivalent of ditching guys who get dropped on Ash, or when they flat. Just because other clubs do it, doesn't mean it has to be that way. Quebec has a whole calendar of peewee, minime, cadet and junior specific races, and masters. We just have to decide we want to do it like that. Your suggestion of Western Speedway, and all the offers of expereinced TS riders to join in as steadying influences to beginners, will do that.

[Roland]

Tripleshot isn't a race, I think Newton Heights and Caleb Pike are that cutthroat. A flat crit would obviously lower the bar the entry. But I still believe you need to a fairly dedicated cyclist before you can have fun road racing, whereas a casual cyclist can have fun at a mountain or cross race.

Sending beginners to mtn/cross wouldn't be ditching them if the more experience riders raced off road too.

I know this requires several bikes, but with the current system, a beginner will have more fun riding a road bike for fitness, and using that fitness to race mtn, cross or tri (if they can swim & run)

Even if we do succeed and build a health community of the island at the C level, there is almost nowhere to progress too. Most of the time, girls will get stuck in Cat 1/2/3/4 races with pros and guys will get stuck in Cat 3/4 races with the likes of Josh and Shawn. It was a mistake for Cycling BC to get rid of Cat 5. To get full fields at the Cat 4/5 level means traveling to Washington state.

While trying to fix a broken system is an admirable goal, I think you need to be honest with the kids coming in. Unless they are willing to suffer getting dropped, maybe for a long time, then road racing probably isn't for them.

[Josh.E]

At the Yaletown cat 3/4 crit, there were 80 people starting. Going into the last corner of the race before I got crashed out, it was down to 9 people left in our lead group. Everyone else got dropped.

I think the difference you and Roland are talking about is that a tripleshot club ride is a "no drop" ride, which is easy to regulate, and to make inclusive to ride in. A mountain bike race (and a cross race) is much more about your individual skill and fitness against other individuals' skill and fitness. There are almost always people around you to race with.
A road race is the strength of the group vs the strength and tactics of the individual(s). One split second wrong decision, you are "off the back" and your race is over. Roland was talking about track racing, and the fact that you got a 2nd chance fifteen minutes later. I think this is key, as getting spat off the back and riding solo is not a very fulfilling experience for someone to invest an entry fee, an entire evening a week to, and still want to return for more.

Most "B" races require at least 6 months to a year of consistent riding for the fitness, as well as pack riding experience just to show up. I also don't think its fair to ask all the people who have invested the time and energy to be competitive at the VCL "B" races to have to pay an entry fee sit up and wait for beginners for half a race. "C" or beginner races are tried all over the place to try to make up for this fact and attract new riders, and never seem to be all that popular.

The key difference between a race and a club ride is that we want people to be able to really RACE. I think a format change, like some that were mentioned earlier in the thread could be key. If the goal is race to give beginners a real race experience, I like the idea of having 5 or so "A"s as rolling marshals in the "C" race whose sole job is to give tips, encouragement, and to try to keep people in contact with the pack. People falling off the back would always have someone who could help them try to get back on, and their day wouldn't necessarily be over after one mistake. The "A"s could also instruct and organize dropped riders into proper chases. If there are people in the "C" race who are obviously sandbagging, and attacking off the front, an "A" could come up to lead the pack back up (at their discretion). There could even be two 15 minute sessions with a neutral regroup after the first sprint. Whatever keeps the race as together as possible, and keeps people from having the dropped solo ride experience.

That way it's not a "club ride" where the people who happen to be the strongest in the field have to wait for those who are the weakest. Everybody gets to have real "race" experience of turning themselves inside out, and we maximize the number of people who are still around to contest the finish.

[Josh.E]

Even if we do succeed and build a health community of the island at the C level, there is almost nowhere to progress too. Most of the time, girls will get stuck in Cat 1/2/3/4 races with pros and guys will get stuck in Cat 3/4 races with the likes of Josh and Shawn. It was a mistake for Cycling BC to get rid of Cat 5. To get full fields at the Cat 4/5 level means traveling to Washington state.

The goal of our "C" races would have to be to get people to the point where they could race VCL "B", which isn't that much of a stretch. If you then get comfortable in the VCL "B" pack, you could easily race cat4. Hopefully by then the reality of the fact that you will have to spend several years getting your ass dropped to move up through the cats has sunk in, but you are sufficiently hooked enough to grin and bear it.

[Lister Farrar]

At the Yaletown cat 3/4 crit, there were 80 people starting. Going into the last corner of the race before I got crashed out, it was down to 9 people left in our lead group. Everyone else got dropped.

Really? No bunch behind at all? But even if it did, that's a narrow, partly cobbled, six corner crit course, which isn't really anyone's idea of good beginner racing.

I think the difference you and Roland are talking about is that a tripleshot club ride is a "no drop" ride, which is easy to regulate, and to make inclusive to ride in.

Ottawa seems to think regulating their B race is easy and worth doing.

A road race is the strength of the group vs the strength and tactics of the individual(s). One split second wrong decision, you are "off the back" and your race is over.

Compared to what women in cat 1-4+ pro have to put up with, as Roland points out, A and B races are pretty homogeneous. But we're going to fix that with huge C and women's fields, right?

Roland was talking about track racing, and the fact that you got a 2nd chance fifteen minutes later.

It's a good point. In fact, I think Drew Mackenzie had a part in creating a different system for the last two BC Games where they had track style events on the road for the Games 12-14 year old age group, and I heard it went well.

I think a format change, like some that were mentioned earlier in the thread could be key. If the goal is race to give beginners a real race experience, I like the idea of having 5 or so "A"s as rolling marshals in the "C" race whose sole job is to give tips, encouragement, and to try to keep people in contact with the pack. People falling off the back would always have someone who could help them try to get back on, and their day wouldn't necessarily be over after one mistake. The "A"s could also instruct and organize dropped riders into proper chases. If there are people in the "C" race who are obviously sandbagging, and attacking off the front, an "A" could come up to lead the pack back up (at their discretion). There could even be two 15 minute sessions with a neutral regroup after the first sprint. Whatever keeps the race as together as possible, and keeps people from having the dropped solo ride experience.

I think you've captured all the benefits of the Ottawa system for beginners, without asking anyone to hold off 'unleashing their awesome amount of power', which is a fundemental biker need, as we all know. Bravo. When do we start?

That way it's not a "club ride" where the people who happen to be the strongest in the field have to wait for those who are the weakest. Everybody gets to have real "race" experience of turning themselves inside out, and we maximize the number of people who are still around to contest the finish.

I knew that when we put a few brains together, we'd have a good result. Compete, from the latin, competere, to strive together.

[EricS]

OK, this club rules... 39 posts about trying to accommodate some damn teenagers and a few middle aged guys who forgot to exercise for ten years after their kids were born. I love it.

Roland: bang on about the way a cross or mtb race goes. Very easy to do as a beginner. However, I sort of disagree about TS rides not being races. When Shawn flew by me this morning going up Sinclair hill in his big ring, I had to dig a little deeper just like when I passed him on Mount Ventoux that year. Or on the few foolish days when I try to hold on to the A group and when I'm ready to drop off the back, ride over to the ditch and lie down, and then Peter yells "Eric, get on!" as he passes, that's a race for me. I know the VCL races will be worse, and I look forward to vomiting on Newton Heights, but the TS rides can be very "race like" for the folks trying to hold on. Take Brenna and Alex for example. 7 months ago they could only ride in the C group on the TS rides, now they ride B easily. Yesterday morning Alex flew by me to try and catch a break that was going for the sprint. In that break I think were Gavin, Peter, Josh and others too fast to be seen. My point? I don't know, I guess what I'm so happy about is the fact that TS rides, while being very collegial, can also give you many of the benefits of a race. Also having a support network (you all) means that if we try a race and get dropped, or slip and fall in the mud, or have a mechanical, we know that we can still show up on Friday morning and do a ride where we won't get dropped and people will smile at us.

I wish I had some answers. And I wish Rolf would get back to writing more deep prose.

Oh...and the guy in the first sentence is me of course, but sometimes sarcasm doesn't show well in print.