New racers: Interest in VCL 'C' group, or modified 'B'?

[Lister Farrar]

Hi all:

After a few B races last year with high school kids, especially girls, who lasted a relatively short time in the group, I wondered if a C group might be a better way to get newcomers into racing.

I asked the VCL (Victoria Cycling league, the name of the Wednesday night series) if they were interested, and there is some interest, subject to logistics (safety, course time, volunteers). They meet Jan 12 to decide the schedule, so I need feedback soon if possible.

I thought I should ask TS members what they might be interested in.

I also asked on the forum of CanadianCyclist.com, and got some interesting input from clubs that have tried different things. In general I would say that pretty much everyone agrees that it's preferable to offer some kind of modified experience to beginners.

Two that might be practical for the VCL are:

Separate C group
A c group was offered in previous years, but has been poorly attended. Last year there 4 of the 18 races in VCL had C races and they all had 2-3 riders except for Windsor which had 13, of which 4 were u18.
Pros: the c's have their own race, then get to watch the faster riders.
Cons: takes more time on most courses; its risky having them being lapped by A's.

Modified B race
Ottawa has a regular weekly crit on a flat, four cornered, closed course. One week it’s A, the next B. One race each week only. They are modifying the B race for next season (after some trials) so the race is controlled the first half, at a speed the back half of the bunch can manage. The stronger B riders pull, but more like a training ride than a race. Some selected A’s ride at the back, and coach the C’s. Then at half way, the ‘race’ starts, and the dropped riders are organized by the A’s in small groups, and ride until they were lapped, when the A’s get them out of the way of the leaders, then continue until they were lapped again. The whole report from the organizer is here http://ccforums.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8985
Pros: riders get a group experience, better skilled riders to mimic, fitter folk pull more.
Cons: Not really a separate C race, tho’ VCL officials think they could pick out the C’s for a points ranking. More lapping, more traffic on a non-closed, partially-open course like we have for VCL.
Thoughts? I need feedback before Jan 12 when VCL meets.

Oh yeah, B's chip in if you don't want your from-the-gun hammer-fest messed up with waiting to "unleash an awseome amount of power on your friends".

[JohnT]

Lister, I was thinking about something similar this morning. But, I was thinking about the older guys, not the younger ones. Not only has our club expanded with the recruitment of under-30's, we've also got several new over-55's. This is what I was thinking: Run a regular B race, but have a symbol next to names that are over 55 years old. Could work just as well with highschool students. The running of the race wouldn't change (with one exception - see below), but there'd be races within the race. That's often the way things go anyway - we try to beat the guy/girl who got us at the line last week, ignoring those who finished well ahead or well behind. This way it is a little more obvious.

The exception is that we'd ask the VCL to record the complete list of finishers, not just top-ten. I think they do this anyway, it's just not always posted to the web site. Then, at the end of the race and at the end of the year it would be easy to figure out if you were the best of the over 55s or best of the highschool students.

A minor complication is drafting. B's aren't allowed to draft A's but over-55's and highschool students would certainly be drafting other B's during the race. I don't see this as a big issue though. Hanging on longer than any other old/young guy is an accomplishment.

Oh, and I am not making this suggestion just to encourage Barry to race so I can draft him. Really, I'm not. That would be selfish and cunning. Hmm, but if it was over 50 Norm would qualify and he's bigger than Barry.

JohnT

[Lister Farrar]

Lister, I was thinking about something similar this morning. But, I was thinking about the older guys, not the younger ones. Not only has our club expanded with the recruitment of under-30's, we've also got several new over-55's. This is what I was thinking: Run a regular B race, but have a symbol next to names that are over 55 years old. Could work just as well with highschool students. The running of the race wouldn't change (with one exception - see below), but there'd be races within the race. That's often the way things go anyway - we try to beat the guy/girl who got us at the line last week, ignoring those who finished well ahead or well behind. This way it is a little more obvious.

The exception is that we'd ask the VCL to record the complete list of finishers, not just top-ten. I think they do this anyway, it's just not always posted to the web site. Then, at the end of the race and at the end of the year it would be easy to figure out if you were the best of the over 55s or best of the highschool students.

A minor complication is drafting. B's aren't allowed to draft A's but over-55's and highschool students would certainly be drafting other B's during the race. I don't see this as a big issue though. Hanging on longer than any other old/young guy is an accomplishment.

Oh, and I am not making this suggestion just to encourage Barry to race so I can draft him. Really, I'm not. That would be selfish and cunning. Hmm, but if it was over 50 Norm would qualify and he's bigger than Barry.

JohnT

Thanks John. Barry is not really who I was thinking of; the guy's already breaking legs! I was thinking more of the newer folks that we would like to catch the bug. Kind of a step up from the King George coffee jam, but not really the typical B race with a jumpy front bunch and people coming off the back in 1's and 2's for the first half.

[JohnT]

Hi Lister et al.,

I realized you weren't talking about Barry, I brought his name up because he's flying, and he's not the only one - My red jacket seems more an more appropriate these days - caboose, lantern rouge, you choose. But, where we were on the same track is the idea of making sub-races within the B race. I don't think a C race is ever going to be well enough attended and even if the numbers crept up, it would be difficult to manage three overlapping finishes and probably impossible to start and end one race prior to others (we run out of light early and late in the season). I think identifying a subset of B racers is the way to go (be they older or younger individuals). Just to repeat, in case I was misunderstood, the idea wasn't that older guys can't win the regular B or A races, but that a way to encourage people to start racing and to keep racing, be they young or old, would be to identify subsets of competitors within a single race. That's the way it's done with the women now - I guess I am really just suggesting that this plan be expanded.

John

[Lister Farrar]

Yeah, I get that.

But new high school kids (and similar speed masters) are going to have several pretty lonely rides off the back of the B's, 'duking' it out with some imaginary opponent on the rankings or someone who gets dropped half a lap later. That's what happens now, and we can see from the C turnout that it's not something that attracts them back.

There's a bell curve of racers, and only the fat part of the curve is getting a real road racing experience. Should I take it that those in that part of the curve really are reluctant to give up part of their ride, whether time on the circuit, or the right to jam from the gun every week?

We are missing one part of the Ottawa equation here, and that is the strong B's who didn't like negotiating crit corners through the many dropped riders, and suggested the moderated first half idea. Maybe that will come up after a few races on the Luxton circuit.

[EricS]

Hello,

This is tricky. Personally, after my first (and only) race last year (Windsor Park), I am ready to try the VLC races this year. I even sprung for a UCI licence yesterday because I want to gather road racing points, work my way up from Cat 4 to Cat 1, turn pro, quit teaching, join a ProTour Team, move to Spain and race in the Tour in 2026 at age 60. However, I am a bit apprehensive. I fear I will be between a B and C racer. B if the course is flat (rare in VCL races) and more like a C- if there are hills. This being said, I'm a big boy and I am willing to put in a season of being dropped as I gain fitness for later (I hope to peak in time for retirement), so I will happily give the regular "B" races a go without modifications even though Sylvan says he's still going to race B.

Now... about the juniors. If we (and hopefully other clubs and high schools) are going to try and increase the number of young racers, we need to provide a fun, safe(ish), not too long, race more than a couple of times per year. I'm sorry to say I don't know of the best way to accommodate this. I do know multiple start time are difficult until we get more daylight.

Lister, it may be worthwhile inviting Steve Lund into this thread as his youth riders (VAC Aviawest) will likely use these races as a training ground and he has kids from several schools and ages (12 to 18). There are some young inexperienced riders in his group (ok, my kids for example) who have not done any road racing yet.

[Josh.E]

sylvan's a funny guy.

he'll be racing "A"

[sylvan]

We are missing one part of the Ottawa equation here, and that is the strong B's who didn't like negotiating crit corners through the many dropped riders, and suggested the moderated first half idea. Maybe that will come up after a few races on the Luxton circuit.

Yup, there hasn't been a crit in the VCL since the DND course back when. They call Newton a hilly crit, but it's not a crit, really, it's a pretty long lap with lots of straights and the long climb where you can pass easily. Not sure what the plan is for Luxton, but one idea might be to only run them from mid-May to late-July, when there's enough light to run something like a 20' C race, 30' B race and 45' A race, all separately. For the short circuit races at Newton and Caleb maybe it's best to group C's with B's and hope they have fun. Or if it's clear that there will be separate 'C' crits later in the year, maybe a larger group of C's will be willing to sign up and ride a separate group a few laps shorter than the B's. They could start 15 seconds after the B's, no drafting B's, except dropped B's, I guess. Definitely no sprinting off the start to latch on to the back of the B's.

[sylvan]

I will happily give the regular "B" races a go without modifications even though Sylvan says he's still going to race B.

I would cry if I raced 'A'. It would be bad and I'm pretty sure the bigger 'A' racers would be mean to me. I ride for fitness and race, maybe race, for fun only.

Lister, it may be worthwhile inviting Steve Lund into this thread

Yup, he has a wide range of riders from raw young noobz to guys who can murder 'B' fields and comfortably ride 'A'. He'll share Lister's concern that they all get good race experience for their level.

[sylvan]

There's a bell curve of racers, and only the fat part of the curve is getting a real road racing experience. Should I take it that those in that part of the curve really are reluctant to give up part of their ride, whether time on the circuit, or the right to jam from the gun every week?

I think so. I'd rather help out by doing 'B' or 'C' Tripleshot rides, helping keep groups together during King George jams and setting up and leading out sprint laps. And volunteering at things like high school practice crit laps.

[AlW]

I'd be fine with the modified B idea for Caleb Pike, provided the no-draft rule applied after the split. I find the B finishes are pretty chaotic to start with and tend to back off as self preservation mode kicks in. Adding slower inexperienced riders would make it that much worse.

I don't see the need for modifying the Newton Heights race though. I don't think the pack lasts long enough for anyone to gain experience. It's more a lesson in suffering than anything else.

Lastly, I was witness to the start of Sylvan's monster bridge to Peter, Gav and Josh on the last lap of the box this morning. He's riding A.

[JohnT]

Getting dropped for a season is not uncommon when one starts racing and, I've discovered, when one moves into A. But, a 'C' series might be something Tripleshot can initiate. A five race series (not on Wednesday evenings) that begins early. We could offer a prize of five VCL race entry fees for the top three in the C series as motivation to continue racing after their series ends. Maybe even a race kit for the winner if there's enough interest/participation to make the winner worthy!

Hmmm. What about combining C races with five TS rides?

1. Fri: Oak Bay Marina -> Clover Point -> two laps of Beacon Hill
2. Tues: Six laps of the Box
3. Fri: Oak Bay Marina Clover Point -> three laps of Beacon Hill
4. Tues: Six laps of the Box
5. Sun: Fruit Stand to Island View Beach and back (x2)

Alternatively, we could attempt to obtain closed circuits (e.g., one lane of the UVic Ring, a loop in the Uplands, and one lane of Mt Tolmie for a individually timed climb).

JT

[spearson]

I also think that a few 'C' races early in the season could be a good "gateway race" to get a few of the more timid of us trying the VCL series. I'd be much happier to ride C for a couple of weeks to figure out the courses, get a handle on technique so I'm not a danger to myself and others, and to do it within a pace that is a little bit more comfortable.

If the early races are a success, keep them coming, if numbers dwindle as people get more gumption, fitness, and experience then combine B&C mid series.

[Lister Farrar]

Getting dropped for a season is not uncommon when one starts racing

You're right of course, but I think that also explains the slow growth, especially in youth ages. I was hoping for something a little more fun than '4 months of death marches, then you can join the club'!

But, a 'C' series might be something Tripleshot can initiate. A five race series (not on Wednesday evenings) that begins early. We could offer a prize of five VCL race entry fees for the top three in the C series as motivation to continue racing after their series ends. Maybe even a race kit for the winner if there's enough interest/participation to make the winner worthy!
Hmmm. What about combining C races with five TS rides?
1. Fri: Oak Bay Marina -> Clover Point -> two laps of Beacon Hill
2. Tues: Six laps of the Box
3. Fri: Oak Bay Marina Clover Point -> three laps of Beacon Hill
4. Tues: Six laps of the Box
5. Sun: Fruit Stand to Island View Beach and back (x2)

If you mean mornings, I think Brenna, Alex, Bow and Adam have given you the wrong impression of the average teenager. For everyone one of those, there's two more interested kids who just can't or won't get up early. And outside TS, even the rest of the adult cycling community doesn't do mornings. The VCL is evenings for a reason, even though it's a pain to get to in rush hour.

Alternatively, we could attempt to obtain closed circuits (e.g., one lane of the UVic Ring, a loop in the Uplands, and one lane of Mt Tolmie for a individually timed climb).

That's a lot more work. The high school league, for example, piggybacks on other courses because the work of permission, insurance, marshals, other services, is big, and takes away from the main objective of getting kids out, which should be the focus, I think.

[Rolf]

What Eric and Simon said.

[Lister Farrar]

I also think that a few 'C' races early in the season could be a good "gateway race" to get a few of the more timid of us trying the VCL series. I'd be much happier to ride C for a couple of weeks to figure out the courses, get a handle on technique so I'm not a danger to myself and others, and to do it within a pace that is a little bit more comfortable.

If the early races are a success, keep them coming, if numbers dwindle as people get more gumption, fitness, and experience then combine B&C mid series.

Well, that's pretty much what we have now, but we have few C’s. What would we do different? I worked the phones as much as I could to get riders out to Windsor for the C race last summer. They got 13 riders (4 juniors), which I heard ( I was away) was actually pretty good. But a one-off is really labour intensive. Even a regular weekly or biweekly C event will take some time until it sinks in and people start arranging their lives around it. Kids have to convince someone to drive or ride with them, at least the first few. The average 14 year old doesn't just look at his watch and say, 'time to ride out to Caleb'.

Another factor is that the high school series is on in April and May, which means the people motivated to get kids out are already busy rounding up kids for that, and two or three might even be VCL races with a high school race first, which would conflict with a seperate C race, but not a concurrent c race. We have their attention, but if they decide they are busy, then it’s up to masters. Maybe a phone tree? If we all agreed to phone 3 or 5 C riders, answer their questions, offer to ride out with them, that might work.

[Roland]

What about doing a parking lot crit on another night? (Monday or Tuesday) Make it specifically a training crit. Should be a lot easier to get permission. Make it open to anybody new to racing or who hasn't finished with the pack in a VCL B race. Run a series of 4 or 5.

Run 3 back to back 20 minute crits. Everybody does the first, then split the faster and slower people for the second two. Or, pull dropped riders, let them recover and make the winners race again with less than a 5 minute break. That should calm them down. Since everybody gets dropped their first crit, running 3 in a night is a good idea. That's what I always liked about track, if you screwed up your race, you just had to wait 15 minutes then you got to race again.

Here are my 3 ideas for courses. Is 500m enough for a crit? I'd think it would be ok for a training crit.

Western Speedway


PISE


Mayfair

[Josh.E]

Anybody know what the roads are, just off of Wilfert in Colwood? Armed forces? Looks like a good loop could happen in there.

[Lister Farrar]

I like the speedway idea Roland. Ottawa used to have a training crit with that was roundish like that and it was great for learning the pack skills without corners splitting it up. Not too far out either. Maybe Tripleshot could do a few in the spring?

Parking lots might require a senior insider. I taught a cycling program for Camosun a couple of times, and they still wouldn't give me permision to use the parking lots there at interurban, even with the dept head asking for us.

[Roland]

Anybody know what the roads are, just off of Wilfert in Colwood? Armed forces? Looks like a good loop could happen in there.

I'm pretty sure that's DND.

This looks like a fairly quiet road: