Rules for welcoming new riders

[Rita]

After today's B ride, I've come up with some rules we ought to obey in order to make sure that newcomers get the best taste of baby blue:

1. If people have dropped off the back and some others keep shouting 'Steady up!', slow down a tiny bit so that nobody can go at full speed, but still go fast enough so that the people who got dropped have to work really hard for about 3km before they get back on. That will teach them a lesson and make them work harder the next time!

2. If you get to the top of hill, say the entrance to the Uphills, and not everybody is there yet don't dare to put a foot down and actually wait at the top -- that would be very bad form. Instead, just coast down slowly, maybe some people can swing off to the first right and some others to the second right or some may even turn around. This ensures that it's really chaotic once the people have finally caught up and nobody can go at full speed the fun hill.

3. Be cheeky! When you get to the top of KGT, stop for few seconds to give the slower riders the feeling that you're going to wait for them. But once they get close, jump on the wheel of the A's who are passing by and let the rest of the B's fend for themselves, i.e. let the experienced riders who are nice enough to wait for any stragglers pull them to the coffee shop.

Any other welcoming things we may want to show newcomers?
Rita

P.S.: If this sounds slightly ranty, it's pure coincidence and has nothing to do with my ride this morning.

[Roland]

Where is Peter when we need him? Somebody needs to lay down the law.

I'm away for the next week, but if people aren't behaving properly by the time I get back, watch out.

[iross]

Hey, Rita made a funny!

I've been off Friday rides (and all other rides!) for a while, but this morning wasn't what I remember TS rides being like. We had new people (including high school students) of varying abilities. That makes stopping at the tops of hills important: coasting over the top is fine when everyone's at more or less the same level, but it doesn't work when there are people falling 30 seconds or even minutes behind (the last person up KGT on this morning's B ride was more than two minutes behind the first person up).

As for people taking off after the As as they went through, I don't really know what to say about that, except that it makes me wonder if the "no drop" rule has a get-out where, if you leave five or more people behind, it doesn't count...

See what happens when the sheriff's out of town?

[Lister Farrar]

You're both right Ian and Rita, but can we not have some allowance for strong B riders to leave us late in the ride if they want, such as when the A's go past? It had been a slow ride, (tho perhaps not slow enough) as it should have been, with the newcomers. I was off the back with Michael a few times. I suggested to Matteo and Adam that they try to jump on the A's because they were not riding anywhere near their capacity.

So yes, technically it was before we agreed to start the jam at Ross Bay, but the group had stayed together until KGT. The opportunity was there for them to try the A group. In my opinion that's preferable to an early jam that shreds the group, then we all plod home in small groups. And we're talking about 500 meters difference, jamming on KGT vs Ross Bay.

I think your earlier comments about regrouping more 'intentionally', early in the ride, after hills, are spot on though.

[Rolf]

Phew... sounded like a fun one if even cool-cat Rita's riled.

Thanks (Lister et al.) for showing my buddy Mike a good first ride. I overindulged with wine and over 2 lbs of raclette cheese last night and consequently stood him up this morning.

Despite "puking", he had good things to say about his experience.

[Rita]

You're both right Ian and Rita, but can we not have some allowance for strong B riders to leave us late in the ride if they want, such as when the A's go past? It had been a slow ride, (tho perhaps not slow enough) as it should have been, with the newcomers. I was off the back with Michael a few times. I suggested to Matteo and Adam that they try to jump on the A's because they were not riding anywhere near their capacity.

Hey Lister,

I see your concern there about Matteo and Adam not being challenged and I think it's completely fine if strong B's want to jump onto the A's wheels (as long as the A's are okay with that), but it was actually that everybody but Paul (also a newbie), Ian, me and two of your students joined the A's. If Ian, Paul and me hadn't cared about Bo and Michael being left behind, we could have joined the second group of the A's passing by. But we felt it wasn't TS custom to just bugger off and let first comers find their own way to the coffee shop.

I guess communication before the ride starts would be a good thing in the future and help to prevent some of the situations today. Maybe a C ride for Newcomers would be appropriate in the future on a day like today.

Rita

[jeremy]

sorry Rita, my only defence was that I had planned at the beginning of the ride with Norm to jump on with the A's when they eventually caught up to us, I did actually feel bad, and was going to say sorry to you and Ian @ moka house but you didn't come. I've had you guys wait for me many times in the past, and it was bad form for me to ride by this morning.

Jeremy

[JohnT]

I think the group/club should have the flexibility to let attacks and break-aways happen some time. The foot down at the top of Ash and Caddy Bay/Uplands can, I think, be balanced by an occassional attack, even from Ash, as Peter and Josh did a couple of months back. I realize this is a bit of a change - but it doesn't have to be a 'slippery slope'. It's important not to let it become a regular event and I agree that it is unfortunate when it coincides with the introduction of new riders. But, as Lister pointed out, a fast group can also be motivational for new people. New people like Shawn will be encouraged to stay with us because he can stretch his legs from time to time. I don't disagree with your remarks Rita - enjoyed the post a lot. Let's try to spread the word that we strive for group cohesion, but we accept occassional noncompliance. Maybe one or two people can agree to be last on each ride to ensure that no one is really left behind - Bill and Gavin, for example.

John

[Lister Farrar]

Hey Lister,
I see your concern there about Matteo and Adam not being challenged and I think it's completely fine if strong B's want to jump onto the A's wheels (as long as the A's are okay with that), but it was actually that everybody but Paul (also a newbie), Ian, me and two of your students joined the A's. If Ian, Paul and me hadn't cared about Bo and Michael being left behind, we could have joined the second group of the A's passing by. But we felt it wasn't TS custom to just bugger off and let first comers find their own way to the coffee shop.

I guess communication before the ride starts would be a good thing in the future and help to prevent some of the situations today. Maybe a C ride for Newcomers would be appropriate in the future on a day like today.

Rita

Rita, and Ian
So what do you think the expectation should be for when the b's have a bit of a jam? Even if it's at Ross Bay, there will still be weaker riders left behind. Bow lives in the James Bay neighbourhood and knew where Mocha House is. I spoke to both Michael and Paul before or on King George , and both of them knew where the meeting point was; Michael told me he wanted to ride in easy and would se us there. The only other two students were with me or ahead of me. And I waited with Al at the sprint point at the Surf Hotel in case it was unclear. Other than ride in with the very last rider, I don't how much more we can do, if we're still going to have a jam at the end. I think it is important to let people we're asking to wait for the rest of the ride, have a 'go' at the end.

[AlW]

I thought the ride was fairly normal.

I agree with your Rita and Ians' comments about stopping intentionally, which we did at the top of Ash.

At the turn onto Arbutus, we sat up and waited. We weren't strung out too much, so a full foot-down stop didn't seem necessary.

At the top of Caddy Bay, people sat up, coasted to where the road splits or doubled back. There's no shoulder at the entrance to Uplands, so I think it's safer to roll down the hill to the split rather than having everyone stop at the top and possibly impede traffic.

As for KGT, it is my understanding that once over hill, the "see you at the Moka House" rule is in effect. What happened today did not seem out of the ordinary (other than the jam starting a little early). A few tried to get on the A-train, others formed a paceline and a few waited for slower riders. I invited Paul to this mornings ride, so I made sure he knew what to expect and where the meeting point was.

Al

[David Hill]

I've been giving a lot of thought to our rides lately, the pace, "how it used to be", etc....

I thought today's ride (with the A's) was a good one, in that we all worked quite well together, and even though there were a couple of early-ish attacks (i.e.,before Arbutus), we had a good rhythm most of the way, and those of us towards the back had to work hard to stay with the group. At Caddy Bay a pack broke off the front, and the other half (or so?) of us would have made Listar proud, in that we grouped up and ran a pace line of about 8 riders all the way through Beacon Hill. This included staying together through King George Terrace and Hollywood Crescent.

What I liked about this was that the fast runs through the tighter spots (i.e., Hollywood) felt much safer than they sometimes do, and it also allowed the really fast guys (and girls, if Sarah hadn't been so kind as to stay back) to have a strong fast ride without leaving a string of 12 solo riders in their wake. It also means that the (often) more experienced riders who are out front can have an aggressive sprint without worrying about some of us non-racer-types possibly making things dangerous by trying to swerve in and out to "win the race".

I think that the B ride should most definitely be a "stay together" and steady up ride. New riders don't necessarily know the pace, and if they feel they aren't getting the speed they need, they can jump up to the other group next time.

When I first started riding with a group about 5 years ago, I was very much impressed with the way the group supported new riders, and encouraged us to get better and learn the ropes. Only at the very end was there a split or sprint, and usually Listar would drag me through it, (before dashing off to win the sprint at the last minute). But it was very clear that coffee was much more important than speed. If we'd had a different attitude, I probably wouldn't have stayed with it this long.

I hope that we're still in that same mindset.

Finally, hats off to anyone who can jump on to the A's or stay on the back of any pack in the home stretch, as long as it's safe and you're not leaving your buddies in the lurch.

Thanks,

David

[Rita]

I thought the ride was fairly normal.
At the top of Caddy Bay, people sat up, coasted to where the road splits or doubled back. There's no shoulder at the entrance to Uplands, so I think it's safer to roll down the hill to the split rather than having everyone stop at the top and possibly impede traffic.

Well, I guess I was just following Peter's advice here. The reason for stopping soon after the gate is so that we can start as a tight pack and ride down the complete hill.

As for KGT, it is my understanding that once over hill, the "see you at the Moka House" rule is in effect.

Maybe I missed something, but I thought that this rule was for the A's. The B's usually wait together on top of KGT so that they can work together afterwards. At least this is what happened on B rides recently. Again, if we communicate the setup in advance, it's all fine.

Lister, as for Bow and Michael being okay on their own and taking it easy at KGT. We didn't know that and we thought that they had been abandoned. Also, do you have any idea of the liability issue in this case. These kids are under 18 years old. What happens if one of them crashes and no adult is around, would that pose a problem for the club?

Rita

[Lister Farrar]

I think the issue of putting a foot down at the top is more a perception than safety issue. But it's an important perception. "Oh, I can see them, I'll be on soon", vs, "I wonder where they are as I haul my butt up this interminable hill?"

As for liability, I can't see how it's more than when they are riding to and from the ride, or any other ride, and it's got to be less risky off the back, for both injury and liability, than when they are actually in the group. The ministry of education self insures school sport, (and it's coaches). The sponsor teacher was on the ride too, which is the line of authority for liability.

If you mean, is Tripleshot liable if a rider joins the group and is injured, I think that's one for the fine print of the Cycling BC insurance policy. Some people say "no, and all should have licenses which are checked every ride", but no clubs I know of do this.

As for B rides not having a jam at the end, I asked twice before we got to King George, and was told 'yes' by one, and "after Hollywood" by another. If there is a jam, it will split. If we are incurring liability by dropping anyone, CBC member or otherwise, I think we would have heard about it before now. Membership in TS might be the easiest solution, (certainly easier than understanding insurance policies). I'll offer to check with Steve Lund who runs an under 18 academy, and CBC to see if under-18 riders pose some other kind of liability risk.

[Rolf]

Just thought I'd revive this post, mostly for the references to our dear under-18 riders and the question of waivers / membership.

Lister: did you find out anything further on this? The line between the Oak Bay team and TripleShot are pretty fuzzy and I think some parental waivers may be a good idea.

Also: to any of you excellent new folks who have made it past a test ride with us and are thinking of doing more (or have already joined us for more than one ride!), please make sure you follow the helpful directions on membership here:

http://tripleshotcycling.servebbs.com/v ... f=15&t=648

It's fun (and cheap) to belong! Plus you can avoid the Waiver Police, coming soon to a coffee shop near you.

For reference, this was the last membership list posted on the forum:

http://tripleshotcycling.servebbs.com/v ... f=1&t=1013

I'm sure you have more to add, Peter?

[Lister Farrar]

No, but thanks for the reminder.
L

[Lister Farrar]

Just spoke to Steve Lund. He says they just ask that juniors with their group, like anyone else, be a club member. And their form requires a parent's signature. Like ours does. (Edit: Actually it didn't, but will have soon.) I have Bow's form here (edit: has her mum's sig) , and will round up the others.

L