sprinting and safety

[Sarah W]

Any thought to moving the Sunday morning sprint from Interurban to Wallace Road? Interurban is busy on a Sunday morning around 9 or 9:30 when we get there and Wallace Rd may be a better place to hold the sprint. The finish line could be Willis Point Road.

I enjoy the sprint (when I can keep up ) but do not enjoy seeing 5 riders stretched across the road and over the yellow line as I saw on Sunday. I have seen too many bike accidents in the past. I am not trying to point fingers, just raise some points and get us all thinking about bicycle safety. I think that the sprints are a fun part of the ride and we can find a way to make sure that they are done safely. It is different riding at 9am verses 6am - more traffic around even if it is Sunday.

I feel as though riders loose common sense and safe riding techniques when they are either trying to keep up or win a sprint. Maybe it is sprint-madness or sprint-induced loss of consciousness but I think that we should be careful where and when we sprint and not loose sight of our good riding skills.

What about yelling 'neutral' if cars appear and the sprint becomes unsafe? I know that no one will have bragging rights at coffee but there is always another day and another sprint.

Although the car with the lady yelling was a little aggressive on Sunday, she is also driving a car and whether she is right or wrong, it is going to hurt us a lot more than it is going to hurt her if there is an accident. For example, even though Dylan was riding properly and following traffic rules, he was hit by a car that went through a stop sign on his way to the Sunday ride. He is fine (thank goodness) but even though he was 'right', he was taken away by ambulance to the hospital and his bike was broken in half. The driver certainly did not sustain any injuries or damage to her car that were comparable.

Also, it is not doing our reputation in the community a favour if we are pissing off drivers.

So, those are my two cents worth for moving the Sunday sprint and also for having two groups of riders when our groups get too big in the morning. The same loss of common sense (spurred on by the fact that we have not had coffee yet!) seems to be happening when riders are struggling to keep up or there are too many riders vying for first place.

[Rolf]

That all sounds eminently sensible, Sarah. Norm can tell the tale of saving my life by yelling out as I veered over the yellow line on Dallas with the approaching motorcoach obscured by sprint-induced tunnelvision.

Dylan: super sorry to hear you had an incident. Hope all is well.

[JohnT]

Thanks Sarah,

I agree that we should come up with something better than we have now. What if we turned right at Willis Pt Road? We'll draw a line across the road about 500 meter in. This also creates an automatic system for reuniting the group after the sprint. I wonder if we should also consider using the Beacon Hill loop for a sprint during the week. One complete loop and then a finish just past the petting zoo. I think we've been lucky so far with the Motel Finish line. Peacocks could become a problem, but they would be softer than a bus.

Dylan, are you OK?

John

[Dave Spiers]

I'm sure that everyone who was there on Sunday would agree that we were a little out of control. I know that it was me that crossed the centre line and me only excuse was that Mike unclipped his foot and was trying to kick me! aside from that we are always going to have drivers that think we should be on the sidewalk and the best we can do is keep out of their way.
Willis Pt road is not a bad idea, i'll bring a can of line marker for Sunday if we agree on a location.

Dylan, sorry to hear you got goon'd on Sunday. Please call If you need help with anything.

Dave

[Greg Miller]

I agree, Interurban is too busy and there are have been several dangerous sprints. I like John T's idea to use Willis Point Road. We should do the same for Josh Saturdays.

[Josh.E]

maybe for saturdays we should make the finish line at the top of the hill on willis point road.

[JohnT]

What a good idea Josh.

JT

[dreeves]

I'm pretty sore but alive...more than I can say for my beautiful bicicleta! Thanks for your concern.

Talk soon,

dylan

[Brian S]

As someone who (often) watches the sprint from the back, I completely agree with Sara, that watching the sprint develop and wander leftwards across the road left me shaking my head. The Wallace vs Interurban debate has merit, but keep in mind the relative space along Wallace is more restrictive in places both in terms of bike space, and of course space for lumbering pieces of human directed metal, intent on passing a bike (even if it is travelling at over the posted speed limit).

Glad you are OK, Dylan.

[Lister Farrar]

Good suggestions Sarah, if only because traffic on interurban seems particularly compelled to pass regardless of our speed, like the Mercedes passenger I heard about from Sunday. I like the 'neutral' call.

Or we could agree that "car back" is not just a warning, but always a call to go tight to the right. Even in twos would be ok because there is a bike lane there, though we're sometimes kinda floaty even without sprinting or changing. Maybe we can work on that too?

[Roland]

I always try for the 3 man break from King George. Much safer. The more people that are dropped by the final sprint, the safer it is.

[Josh.E]

Or we could agree that "car back" is not just a warning, but always a call to go tight to the right. Even in twos would be ok because there is a bike lane there, though we're sometimes kinda floaty even without sprinting or changing. Maybe we can work on that too?

I second that. Moving over to let cars by when we hear "car back" will set us apart from several other local rides, where "car back" means to puff out your chest, take up more of the lane and get your middle finger ready.

Regardless of anyone's view on these things, the law in BC says that we have ride single file, and, if we cannot maintain the speed limit we have to move as far to the right as is "practicable" to let cars pass. The term "practicable" is there to allow discretion on the part of the cyclist to own the entire lane, when allowing a car to pass would not be safe (like on the johnson st bridge, or on bay st from douglas to quadra). Anytime we are riding two up, we are breaking the law, especially when the pack is moving below the speed limit, and we don't allow cars to pass us. If we are travelling at or above the speed limit, two up is still illegal. Just because we are doing something illegal doesn't give the driver the right to do something illegal, like pass us when we are moving at the speed limit, but it may be worth it to remember that we are also in the wrong in the eyes of the law when we encounter pissed off drivers.

I don't personally agree with these laws, as I think two up pack riding is generally much safer for the cyclists, but this is where we choose to live, and the roads we choose to ride on.

[Lister Farrar]

Good reminders of the quirky legal reality Josh.

One other thought. Moving over promptly and thoroughly is an obvious sign we have heard the car and are giving way. But maybe a friendly wave to pass from a back rider can move things along quicker and let us get back to thrashing each other.

I guess this may incur some liability by signaling other road users what to do, but turn signals and flashing your lights at a bus to merge are similar. I think it could calm the road rage candidates and prod the chicken drivers to get by and not provoke others behind them.

The main thing is reacting, and staying tight so they know we're working with them.

Either that or we could get oursleves some gendarmes on motos to wave little red paddles to cars.

[JohnT]

The sprint isn't safe. Those who are in it are desperately searching for wheels and focussing on almost nothing else. Crossing the yellow line, as dangerous as it seems and looks, might be the only thing someone in the bunch can do to avoid an accident. 'Car back' or 'neutral' will make things worse, unless everyone hears the command and responds in the same way (which ain't going to happen). Furthermore, if something bad is happening behind you (e.g., a chain coming off, pedal unclipping, car passing, etc.) the safest thing to do is to keep moving as fast as you can - can we unlearn that?. Maybe I am wrong, but I feel that the best approach is to accept that we're doing something a little crazy, illegal and dangerous, and therefore, we should do it in a private a spot as possible - our own semi-secret Fight Club! Anything else just creates within group trouble when some feel that others haven't responded appropriately to commands.

Sorry to seem so blunt, but when the discussion turns to what is and isn't legal it is clear there's no way to sort it out.

John (a little sick, which might also explain the impatient writing style)

[Josh.E]

The main reason I brought up the law was in response to things I've heard the last couple days about how irrational the driver was acting on Sunday. I wasn't there, and really can't comment, but us acting self righteous about our place on the road when we are in fact breaking the law isn't going to do anything but make confrontations with drivers escalate. From what I've heard, John, you were extremely calm and well spoken trying to talk to the woman.

For the sprints I agree we might just have to accept the fact and the risks involved in that what we are doing is neither 100% safe or 100% legal. People who don't want to be involved can easily just let the hammerheads ride away.. Maybe doing it in a more isolated area is a good idea. For the majority of our rides, however, when we are riding at 30-32km/h in a large pack, there's no reason why we shouldn't try to do it in as courteous and legal a way as possible.

For every driver we piss off doing something inconsiderate on the road, that's one more driver who might do something aggressive or inconsiderate to another cyclist. I'd just rather not contribute to that cycle of aggression, as my bike is also my main mode of transportation.

[JohnT]

Hey,

I agree Josh. Responding as quickly as possible to 'car back' is important. I've noticed that we're getting better - people coming off the front are getting in line temporarily when there's a car. I think our two-up line can be made socially acceptable even though it's not legal. I didn't mean to go overboard with the legality comments - sorry. My point was that things can't help but change in the sprint, at least the Sunday morning version. I don't think that can be sugar-coated. There usually are cars nearby and we usually ignore them because, for a minute or so, we've got one-track minds. And, aborting the sprint mid-way could be dangerous. I don't think anyone was rude to that car on Sunday, but the view from behind (from bikes or cars) when we're four wide and fighting for position is not one that gains us many supporters. One solution is a revised venue. Willis Pt. is one suggestion. There may be much better ones.

It's funny. My brother raced superbikes for almost 20 years (Canadian Champion several times by the way). Anyway, a lot of guys got into that because the lost their licenses for racing on the streets. Maybe the start of the VCL will help us.

JT

[Chris Watt]

Dylan- sorry to hear but glad you're in one piece.

Testosterone being what it is I think the sprint is here to stay. Moving it to Willis Pt Road would make it much safer- traffic is wayyy lighter both ways on Sun am's and there are no blind dog legs (unlike Wallace which has the blind dog leg to the right, is narrow, and has some fairly cruddy asphalt in parts). It's at about the same part of the ride as Interurban. Anybody not wanting to sprint wouldn't be dropped as they currentlyare- they could ride part way up Willis and pick up the group on the ride back down the hill. Or, if the coffee spot is called pre-sprint they can just ride on and buy the rest of us coffee (how's that for motivation?) With a long flat section AND a long hill it would democratize the sprint- one winner for each section. Double your chances for glory.

Finally my wife would like to apologize to everybody for all the angry things she said on Sunday. (I'm just glad no one saw me cowering under the dashboard.)

Chris

[Chris Watt]

John- where else were you thinking for the sprint?

[Lister Farrar]

Thinking of what made interurban fun for the sprint, it included a fairly long run-in (4-5 km) easy-ish, fast, with few hills. (read: good for keeping it together for more riders to sit on and get the feeling of racing)

A Willis point sprint will have about 2 km from the stop sign at Benvenuto, and either a short straight to a sprint after the corner, or a longish climb to whatever sprint point is chosen. Better than getting run over, but not quite the same.

Another option is to reverse our route and have the sprint somewhere after a clockwise route of the peninsula. No ideal sprint run-ins and straights at 9:30 am come to mind, but maybe to someone else?

We could even let John and Josh and the merry band of hammer heads ride an extra loop through the Highlands and try to catch us before the sprint.

[Lister Farrar]

One other thought on a possibly safer way to enjoy a jam at the end of the ride. Rather than one big bunch, we could re-group in Brentwood bay, and send off groups in reverse order of strength, and let the strongest try to catch the earlier starters. Like the fox and hounds game, but we could allow the groups to join as they catch, or attack; everyone will have had a turn to really take part and try to catch or stay away (vs suffer for a short time and go straight out the back), and we'd have fewer riders together at the finish for a safer sprint at the usual place.