Crash on the Sunday ride

[wonger]

I thought it important to post about the crash on the Sunday ride yesterday. It took place on the narrow stretch of Wallace Drive just before Heals Rifle Range. I confess I do not know the name of the person who caused the crash, but Lois was the other person to hit the pavement when she ran into his bike (apologies to the guy who went down - I would use your name if I knew it).

The discussion following the crash indicated that the rider ran off the pavement onto the gravel and as he came back onto the road, he lost control and went down. Lois ran into his bike and hit the deck. I appreciated that people jumped right in to direct traffic and to start assessing the damage. An ambulance was called and after a considerable amount of time, the rider who went down decided to continue on aboard his bike. At that point we had been hanging around for about 45 minutes and people had to continue with their day, so the group pretty much split up and everyone made their own way home.

I know that Lois and Rob called for someone to come and collect them. Lois' helmet was cracked so it was smart to wait it out and be safe.

Does anyone know how our other rider made out? Does anyone have any other details about this incident? If you could update us I would appreciate it.

We have repeatedly discussed this section of road and how best to approach it. At the time we were employing a moderate rotating pace line in an effort to be only two riders wide. There were probably twenty or twenty five of us at that point, there was at least one car if not two passing us when the crash happened and I think we were very, very lucky that it wasn't worse. The fact that only two riders went down was something of a miracle in itself. Wayne came oh so close to being pushed into and under a passing car, the consequences of which I don't want to consider.

I'd like to hear what people think would make this four kilometer stretch of road safer for all of us. I'm at the point where I think we should spread ourselves three wide and take the whole road for that stretch to ensure that cars don't pass us, and that we aren't forcing ourselves into the potholes and gravel on the side of the road that caused this accident. Any other thoughts and input are appreciated.

[JTyre]

I'm at the point where I think we should spread ourselves three wide and take the whole road for that stretch to ensure that cars don't pass us, and that we aren't forcing ourselves into the potholes and gravel on the side of the road that caused this accident. Any other thoughts and input are appreciated.

My suspicion is that drivers will pass regardless of how many we're abreast and whether there's a solid yellow line or not (which there is). Drivers will be just that much more pissed off at us if we ride three abreast, and for that reason I'm not sure we'd be any safer.

Another option would for us to calm down our double rotating paceline by trying the system described in this thread (a "two-up step-wise rotation", as Claire neatly put it). In this configuration there would be two minutes or so before any major moment, as opposed to major movement all of the time in a conventional rotating paceline. Wallace between Benvenuto and Willis is a nightmare at the best of times, and I sigh with relief every time I make it through. Good on you Geoff for raising it as an issue.

John

[mfarnham]

I wasn't there. Based on a second-hand report, my understanding is that Eric hit a pothole and that caused the crash. That's not necessarily inconsistent with Geoff's account, by the way.

For those who were there, I guess a couple questions would be 1) were hazards being pointed/called out effectively? and 2) did group size play a role? Sometimes information doesn't flow through a large group as effectively as through a smaller one.

I don't think we should actively block the road to those who try to pass. I think that would worsen the already difficult relations between drivers and riders and that's a battle we're likely to lose, especially in the heat of the moment. Also 3 wide would reduce our flexibility to maneuver side-to-side quickly which we need to avoid potholes. While I'm a fan of the rotating paceline for getting a group through a narrow stretch, it can pose problems in a large mixed group. Probably the easiest short-term solution is to put 2 strong riders on the front and have them do a long steady pull through that section without dropping back until the road widens.

John's proposal is interesting. But I think it should be discussed over coffee with the larger group, and then tried out (with everyone fully informed of what's going on) on a safer section of road. It would also be worth talking to Peter about his views on that formation, as I think he has reservations. I don't know what they are, but they're surely worth hearing and considering. And for those who were there, it's worth considering whether the rotating paceline was really part of the cause of the crash, or whether the accident could just as easily have happened with some other formation.

Feel free to PM me if you have thoughts on what happened. And best wishes to Eric and Lois for a speedy recovery.

Martin

[wonger]

Eric! Thanks Martin.

I was thinking the same thing - there are always stronger riders in the mix on the Sunday ride. Putting two or three or four at the front and a doorman behind them and stringing out single file might be the best approach to that section. I'm certainly willing to try it.

The difficulty with John's suggestion in my opinion is that it's a system that needs to be communicated and as Martin points out, communication through the group can be challenging. There is also a variety of experience and comfort level among the group which may make it a harder system to implement. I really think that the tension mounts as we travel that section of road - there is less space, more potholes and cars often passing. Keeping it simple might be best.

[JTyre]

The difficulty with John's suggestion in my opinion is that it's a system that needs to be communicated

Geoff, the only communication is between the pair on the front at the point they decide to finish their pull. That said, it's a new system (to Tripleshot) and I admit that just explaining it has taken about 40,000 posts.

I like the idea of asking two (or more) stronger and trusted riders to carry the group through -- keeping the pace safe and calling out obstacles. For the privilege, we would insist they spring for post-ride coffee and snacks .

John

[roadflasj]

Perhaps a single file orientation much like West Saanich Rd could be used. Only when clear and safe does the front rider drop back and rarely to the end just a few positions down. I also like the idea of designated lead riders through the more hazardous sections as the Sunday ride should be kept as safe and social as possible. Hard workouts should be reserved for weekly efforts on safer roads.

[JohnT]

My feeling is that single file is best there.... one person on the front for the entire section.. everyone else can treat it as a break before the observatory climb.

Maybe even a designated 'caboose' - several people appear to ride with back light mounted all year. Big groups could break into two at the The Butchart Gardens stop sign, so it's not a >14 rider single line.

I hope Eric and Louise are recovering well. Broken helmets are worrying.

JT

[Steven]

I'm new to the part of the world, but is it possible to take a fresh look at the Sunday ride route, and seek out some safer road options?

[Greg F]

My thoughts on 'single' vs 'two-up' on Wallace:

As Barton pointed out one ride, and as I have observed passing cyclists on Shelbourne, you have to go into the other lane regardless if its single-file or two-up when there's no shoulder on a road. If its two-up, at least the group is half as long, so the drivers can get around more quickly. If its a longer single-file group, they may feel more compelled to squeeze past with an oncoming car, which is going to end badly...

West Saanich has a fairly decent shoulder; I think that's why single-file makes sense there (like on Mt Doug too): we don't hold up any cars. But I think Wallace should be considered differently. Its also fairly flat & not very long (about 3km) between Benvenuto Rd and Willis Point (where the road opens up), so having 2 people pull the group isn't too bad... especially if they get free coffee and extra kudo's on Strava

[JTyre]

I agree with Greg.

A single line of 25 riders would be more than half a football field long. (Assuming my carry-overs are correct in this complex piece of long-hand arithmetic.) I mentioned this to Felix the Censor Cat (aka the Wicked Witch of Vic West) this morning and he suggested breaking into two groups. That's one approach. Another is to go two-abreast (but controlled, as discussed), which is my vote at this point in the discussion.

John

[Bosie]

I think riding with 25 people in a group on Wallace in a non fondo is asking for trouble no matter what formation you use. It makes it super hard to pass as a car. And fairly challenging at the back to know about the potholes coming up.

Split the group IMHO.

[Rolf]

I'm very sorry to hear of this crash and I wish both Lois and Eric speedy recoveries.

I'd say split any group north of 16. Eight riders is a sustainable number over any distance. 17 is the approximate point when the negatives mentioned above start creeping in. I'd say healthy splits should be encouraged on Sundays from the start. If you want to re-prioritize* the "social" part of Social Sunday, groups can always mix & match at Mattick's, Island View, and the Observatory. And everyone ends up at coffee together, too.

(I think proper splits should also be encouraged on weekday rides, in the parking lot and whenever mega-groups form on the road by absorbing late riders along Shelbourne, or dropped riders at the top of Ash etc.)

*Sundays over the past few years seem to have shifted from chatty to chase-y.

[Ann]

(I think proper splits should also be encouraged on weekday rides, in the parking lot and whenever mega-groups form on the road by absorbing late riders along Shelbourne, or dropped riders at the top of Ash etc.)

See also viewtopic.php?f=19&t=7713.

[Gerry L]

We should be riding single file in smaller groups on the more treacherous sections of road such as Wallace past the stop sign to West Saanich road. These sections should be added to the ride details. Go for it the rest of the time.

See this news link:
http://www.cbc.ca/1.4682337

Gerry

[mfarnham]

I think everyone wants a safe approach. It's just a question of which approach is safest.

Often 2-up is safer than single file, because with single file, cars are more likely to misjudge their ability to pass, come in close on the single-file line on a curve, and then see an oncoming car and err on the side of hitting the soft objects over the hard one. With a 2-up line they're more likely to sit back and wait for a long straight stretch to pass. A driver can also pass the same number of riders more quickly (and, therefore, generally more safely) if those riders are 2-up.

The challenge with Wallace is that it's a narrow lane to start with and has lots of rough spots which need to be dodged. There's not a lot of lateral degrees of freedom with which to avoid potholes, and if someone gets jumpy in a two-up line when a jacked up pickup comes screaming by, things can turn bad.

It's probably worth trying the following: Break the group into sets of 8 or so, and take it single file, leaving several car lengths between each group. But take the lane. Basically ride up the middle of the lane so cars have to firmly commit to the other side when passing. If people have lights...great. Put them on the back of the line, and a strong rider on the front for a long steady pull (one for each group). We don't necessarily have to commit to this as the long-run answer, but let's try it and we'll be better informed when the discussion (inevitably) continues. Shouldn't be too hard to coordinate on the fly between Benvenuto and the narrow stretch. Discuss at coffee before and reminder at Matticks.

And let's keep group sizes reasonable on the rest of this or any other ride.

Martin

[AJ Neale]

I think Martin has the best solution, and as Gerry pointed out, perhaps it should be entered into the ride details. Given that we should all come to a COMPLETE group stop at Benvenuto, and we always ride single file on the shoulder after merging onto West Saanich Road, would it be feasible to send small waves of 8 riders single file down Wallace at least 30 seconds apart? We could turn right on Willis Point Road, make a U-turn when safe, and re-group at the stop sign at the bottom of Willis Point before heading en masse and single file to West Saanich and the Observatory. We could also employ the suggestion of having a stronger rider pull the entire way, or alternate lead riders when it's safe to peel back. I think it is absolutely crucial for the last rider to continuously check over their shoulder and call "car back" as soon as it gets near. I'm not too sure about taking the lane, but we all recognize that the edge of the road is lousy, so riding 75 cm from the edge will keep us safe and make it possible for cars wanting to pass a chance.

I really think we need to be serious about safety on Wallace, the only section of road that unnerves me more on our regular rides is where the Interurban sprint occurs. If a segment of our Sunday social ride becomes a piece that we need to just "survive", then let's change our current configuration and make sure we ALL arrive at coffee. As was pointed out, we don't even want to consider the consequences of an accident involving a vehicle, so let's do the safest thing possible. Change from the routine can be a good thing right?

I hope Eric and Lois are recovering completely. I spoke to Lois' son yesterday and he said his Mom is fine.

Respectfully,

Andrew

[JohnT]

Durrance=WallaceDr_2_WestSaanichRd.jpeg (58.39 KiB) Viewed 8756 times

Durrance Road looks like a connection between Wallace (before the bad section) and West Saanich Rd.

Has anyone ridden it? Is it an option? Maybe split the pack at the Butchart Gardens stopsign and then have one group make this left turn. We all meet up at the Observatory.

JT

[Marcus]

Or if a bike lane is desired, turn left onto West Saanich at Brentwood Bay and avoid the Wallace section in discussion. I recall vaguely West Saanich having a bike lane all the way from Brentwood Bay but if I go that way I usually turn left on to Old West Saanich and Sparton before rejoining West Saanich at Mosi coffee which is another option.

[John D]

Durrance Road looks like a connection between Wallace (before the bad section) and West Saanich Rd.

Has anyone ridden it?

It looks REALLY narrow when I just checked it on Google maps.

J.

[John D]

Here's a screenshot: