TS Tuesday B1 /A2

[Julie]

What exactly are the rules? Dillion so kindly pointed out that you are supposed to do 2 consecutive pulls, sorry I was not aware of this. Also you can go "too fast", so is it not a drop ride? I thought it was structured to help transition to A, but it sounds like a B1 ride? With weird new rules. Please elaborate, I'm not trying to piss people off or "screw up" the ride. I was applying the regular rules of etiquette with the A ride rules, where if you go "too fast" people jump on your wheel & the group fractures or you dust yourself, the point being to challenge yourself.
What are the rules?
So confusing.
Mixed information
I don't want to disrespect the group.

[Rolf]

The second fastest ride on the day is A2, Julie. It's a drop ride, meaning riding cooperatively is optional. Going off the front is perfectly acceptable! Having said that, I think many are motivated to keep the group in a zippy, tight paceline, as that arguably keeps the speed highest (and maximizes the workout and physical challenge) for the greatest number of people. A fast but functional paceline is also safer than an unpredictable, full-on "race" environment.

From talking to others, I understand A2 started pretty massive this morning and then broke up into bits. Which is kinda what people sign on for...

[Julie]

Thanks for the information. What your saying goes under the rules of etiquette. I'm talking about the "new nonsensical rules"
It was after we broke into 2 groups. I pulled the end of caddy around the corner & all of Landsdowne until the last bit, then Brent jumped in before the Henderson turn, after the turn Dillion yelled I was supposed to pull, in which I had just done. I don't understand that, plus I'd jumped in a few times already to fill in the gaps.
It makes no sense.
What did I do wrong?
I know I'm supposed to be a bigger person & let it go...but it is a rare chance I get to group ride. A2/B1 the flak is there, so I would like to know what I'm doing wrong or not wrong so I can adapt & move on from these petty posts

[roadflasj]

Perhaps he thought you had enough horsepower or fitness to do a double pull. My laps only ride (had to head home early) was punctuated with several people doing double or near double pulls to keep the ride together and minimize gaps. Probably you could have pulled shorter on the first effort at least anticipated a non rest based on the gap to the turn. It's only a club ride so unless someone is yelling for an upcoming safety or hazard I would do the safest maneuver possible and if you can't pull through slowly move over with proper communication. Some riders are very passionate and just want to keep the speed up, don't worry too much about it or just flat out attack off the front to keep things simple.

[Julie]

Thanks . It wasn't a safety thing, but next time I'll ignore the rude comments & take my frustration out on the ride. I did a long pull because I was getting too much recovery, even in the smaller group. My mistaken.
I'd ride A but Peter says I need to be able to ride solo for an hour of a speed faster than 40/km hour.
Seems impossible, considering for the TT provincials 3 pro men managed that pace, but it was under an hour, on their TT bike, skin suits, full carbon wheelsets & flat. I don't understand that either.
I guess I'm simple.

[rich m.]

Hi Julie, now that we are singling up on landsdowne in anticipation of the corner at henderson, it makes sense for the second wheel coming into the corner to do a double pull: once on landsdowne and then again once around the corner. Rather than someone doing a monster pull from the back to make it up to the front again, the second wheel only needs to get past the first wheel to reinitiate the rotation. Hope this makes sense.

Rich

[dreeves]

Didn't mean to offend,nor sound rude, Julie. I was just trying to point out that second wheel onto Henderson initiates the rotation so that we get the group in synch again after singling up. It will not always mean that you do a double pull. No need to hammer, just get the flow going.

Once again, sorry if you were put off by the tone of my instructions.

d

[Julie]

I was recovering from a long pull, but since Lisa's crash onto the wrong side of the road, singling up is priority 1, so the ride does not get banned. As for the formation, my suggestion along with changing the ride to single file for Lansdowne, the person who did pull the lansdowne pull was guaranteed a recovery on Henderson. That was the original plan, because the sprint happens shortly after. Incentive to guarantee people single up, for if they had to pull lansdowne. It was hard enough getting people to single up for landsdowne.
This is how it was left or no one would go on the front on Lansdowne

Rich, it makes sense. I was going by the original plan when the 3rd cyclist started the rotation

[Paul C.]

Just a suggestion...forum discussion is great
And would it be valuable to talk about this type of issue in person??

[Julie]

I agree & if it was possible it would of been done. As for the clarification on the ride structure it's good for everyone to know it's been changed to 2nd rider resuming the paceline after the Henderson corner.
I think this kind of clarification is perfect for the forum...as now all know the change in the structure.

[mfarnham]

A2 is a drop ride so attacking the group is fine as long as it's not in a neutral zone (around stop signs, hazards). If the rest of the group wants a nice tight rotation, they can regroup without you and chase.

The turn onto Henderson is considered neutral, given the safety issues and desire to keep people from going wide. To keep this safe, word has been spread (mostly on rides by people calling out like Dylan did) that riders on the front should soft-pedal up the hill to allow the end of the line safely around the corner without being tempted to go wide or double up early.

I think it's standard (on any ride) that the second rider starts the rotation when the group is moving from single-file to rotating. Because we’re soft-pedaling at that point, it shouldn’t be a hard pull. But if you’re gassed and second in line, just ask the person behind you to start the rotation.

Ciao!
Martin

p.s. Rich—in a previous post—noted that the best way to single up before Henderson (works especially well with a small to moderate sized group) is to stop rotating from the slow line to the fast line as soon as you hit Lansdowne. Those already on the fast side finish rotating forward. If things work that way, the people on the front turning onto Henderson aren't hugely gassed because they've been mostly drafting as they come to the front. It also avoids merging, which is a riskier procedure. I noticed that yesterday's B1 ride didn't do this--perhaps because it was a very large group.

[Bosie]

I joined the A2 ride late on Tuesday, but one of the really cool things about the split was that the 5 or 6 of us behind the front 12 really had a hard chase trying to catch the front group. It was a great workout. Unfortunately I had to go to work, and so never found out if our small group caught the front group:(

Its something to consider if we ever have a huge A2 group again:
Intentionally split into 2 equalish groups and have the front group try to stay away from the back group- might work best on a Friday ride

[Rolf]

Its something to consider if we ever have a huge A2 group again:
Intentionally split into 2 equalish groups and have the front group try to stay away from the back group- might work best on a Friday ride

At risk of getting off-thread, the Club's had a few instances of organizing "foxes and hounds" type games—e.g. giving a small zippy group a half-minute or so lead, and then chasing over a defined segment before regrouping and repeating over the next segment. Strava users will notice segments titled, for example: "Tripleshot 2nd Sprint & Chase Segment". It's damn fun and a seriously good workout for everyone.

Also, here are some related historical forum postings:
Sept. 2008 (Lister introducing the idea): viewtopic.php?p=857
Jan. 2011: viewtopic.php?p=9783
June 2012: viewtopic.php?p=17788

[AJ Neale]

I agree Craig ..... that was fun chasing the bigger group knowing we needed to do some hurting to catch them! The front group was whittled down by Beacon Hill and it seemed to me that we did the sprint together - so yes, we caught them eventually. The headwind along Dallas all the way past the flagpole was wicked, and for some reason never turned into a tailwind near the petting zoo. What's with that?

Kudos to Dylan for getting the group to spilt up on the box ....... I think we were at 20 so it just made sense, it made things safer, and as you describe, it's fun to play the cat and mouse game with a like-minded group. On that note, I wanted to mention that after the 2nd A2 group ( on the road ) passed our front group we gave them some space ( etiquette right? ) but then caught back up to them at the 4th lap sprint on Cedar Hill. We could/should have left a gap I suppose, but there really is plenty of room on Cedar Hill for 20 bikes IF those pulling stay to the right allowing lots of room to the left. I saw the lead riders pretty much in the middle of the lane which clogged things up for those attempting to pass on the left ..... including those of us in the second group that had caught up. So people, please keep your line but stay to the right so there is room for cars, faster bikes and Allan with all his titanium.

Andrew

P.S. In defense of Dylan, we all love him for his useful instructions ( because darn it, he's always right ) and I believe he tends to shout because he has concluded that we collectively don't hear or pay attention to him nearly as well as his students!

[Julie]

I'm sorry. I was only at the first few rides after Lisa's crash to enforce the new rules. Which were weird, but no one wanted to bring the sign & suggestions were nil. It was the original plan, the modification sounds way more logical. I agree people take that turn way too wide & cross the yellow on lansdowne as well, to do it (that's a DQ & another risk of being banned). I'm glad you've come up with a better more logical solution, that being said, since my theme in this thread is "the trouble maker"
Maybe a cornering class for those taking it too wide. The first week after Lisa's crash the person behind me yelled turn wide (????) I did fearing a crash (it made no sense) & there was a cop car..I'm just saying.t
Thanks guys for all you input & patience with me.

[Mark C]

p.s. Rich—in a previous post—noted that the best way to single up before Henderson (works especially well with a small to moderate sized group) is to stop rotating from the slow line to the fast line as soon as you hit Lansdowne. Those already on the fast side finish rotating forward. If things work that way, the people on the front turning onto Henderson aren't hugely gassed because they've been mostly drafting as they come to the front. It also avoids merging, which is a riskier procedure. I noticed that yesterday's B1 ride didn't do this--perhaps because it was a very large group.[/quote]

I was at the back of the B1 group on two laps and tried doing this first time it worked second time people jumped out from right to left when on Lansdowne, I think this is something we should explain in the parking lot as it could be a good thing.

Cheers Mark