disc brakes no longer welcome in pro peleton

[Lister Farrar]

Two interesting bits:

1. Rounding a rotor makes it the same radius as a regular 14 g spoke. Hardly a 'whirling blade of death'. And much less sharp than very common aero spokes.

2. You can do this yourself. Sand and file the edges down. Seems pretty simple.

(But you knew that already, didn't you Eric?)

L

[David Hill]

In this weekend's very well attended and successful Race the Ridge in Maple Ridge, the CBC Commissionaires walked away from the race, because some bikes had disc brakes, including my 15-year-old son's. Rather than disrupting the race, organizer Barry Lyster doubled down, and asked parents and others to volunteer to marshall and generally help out with the race.

Although this resulted in a 45 minute delay in the start of the TT (oddly, didn't add 45 minutes to everyone's time!), the races all went off beautifully.

Note that there were some 60 riders in the Cat 3 men's crit... clearly a recipe for decapitation or leg amputation if ever there was one. But again, no mention of the discs...

To my knowledge the damage to the riders in the two crashes (Cat 4 road and Cat 3 crit) were caused primarily by the impact of the road on bones, and friction of the pavement against the skin, and not by the disc brakes.

I truly think UCI, CCC and CBC should be focusing on the real risk: gravity and pavement. From here on, all cycling events should be held in an enclosed pool, lined with rubber. (but no helmets!)

Women and men of science should be demanding clear evidence of the risk of disc brakes, or evidence of unfair advantage, before jumping on the bandwagon of "I just think it" so it must be right. Knee-jerk reactions usually just end up with someone getting kicked in the face.

[Brian S]

and on it goes

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-to- ... n-in-june/

[Alan]

So I guess we (ie: the Tripleshot Board) don't have to worry about disc brakes in the VCL or the speedway races. Whew. That was going to be a major headache anyways....

But Dave, speaking of the big causes of injury, ie: gravity and pavement, I'm reminded of the last time I did this (see photo, ie: jumping out of a big-assed bird with a rifle, a rucksack and snowshoes) I didn't have to worry about pavement. The gravity was extremely useful, even though it was the cyclists' other worst enemy (wind) which ended up making me swim ashore from the pond I landed in....
Damned wind!

[Lister Farrar]

FYI, USA cycling plans to continue to allow disc brakes.

From: Hodge, Chuck [mailto:chodge@usacycling.org]
Sent: May-04-16 10:45 AM
To: Lister Farrar <listerfarrar@telus.net>
Subject: Re: any changes to disc rules in road events?

Hi Lister,

I actually saw Cycling BC's note to members recently regarding discs - looks like people are pretty passionate up there!

We do not foresee a change to our policy within 2016, barring a major incident(s). We have also decided to continue allowing discs at the National Calendar events we run under UCI equipment regulations (our Nationals and Pro Road Tour). Of course, any UCI events in the US will fall under their regulations.

I hope that helps.

Chuck


_______________
Chuck HODGE
Technical Director
mobile: +1-719-229-0732 (m)
office: +1-719-434-4264 (w)
chodge@usacycling.org
http://www.usacycling.org




On May 4, 2016, at 1:18 PM, Lister Farrar <listerfarrar@telus.net> wrote:

Hi Mr. Hodges:

I'm a coach, and a member of Cycling BC and Cycling Canada, and am participating in a discussion about disc brakes in road events in Canada. In aid of my research of precedents, can you tell me if USAC is contemplating any changes this season to this policy? https://www.usacycling.org/officials-up ... DiskBrakes

Cheers
Lister


https://www.usacycling.org/officials-up ... DiskBrakes

[Rolf]

Keep striving for rational and sane decision making on this topic, Lister. And sharing your efforts and ways we can participate in and support them.

[Lister Farrar]

A letter sent to the chief official of BC, the officials apparently being the main objectors to discs. But to be clear, I haven't been able to speak yet with an official from BC.

From: Lister Farrar [mailto:listerfarrar@telus.net]
Sent: May-04-16 9:54 AM
To: Bonin, Claire (claire@cyclingbc.net) <claire@cyclingbc.net>
Subject: disc brakes in BC road races

Hi Claire:
I'd like to speak with you to help me understand the BC officials position on disc brakes in road events. (If this has been resolved to allow them, please ignore this.). My number is 250 882 5420. I will take your call at any time.

As I understand it, BC officials feel they must prohibit discs in all BC road events and categories, in spite of Cycling BC's desire to approve them, and having liability insurance covering us all. I suggest this is not a correct or helpful position.

There are many examples in cycling where provinces and countries make their own decisions and rules to suit their membership and circumstances. And this clearly does not compromise the status of their officials, or ability to work, at other levels of the sport.

For example, the yellow line rule is not included in the UCI rules, yet no one says BC officials are somehow liable for risks officiating races in BC using it.

The Victoria velodrome had a three year agreement to host the World Cup of track in 1998, 1999 and 2000, that was pulled after one year by the UCI because we did not have a tunnel, allegedly affecting safety. Does this mean BC officials have been liable for safety risks for the past 17 years by officiating races at the Victoria velodrome?

Conversely many UCI rules are not enforced here: rider radios are not permitted in races yet they are in UCI races. UCI fees for fines and per diems are not enforced here.

As well, many countries have additional categories at national championships than are foreseen in UCI rules. Indeed the lack of parity in women and men's championships by the UCI is illegal in Canada. There are many, many other examples.

And does it make sense to contradict Cycling BC's board on disc brakes when there is no evidence of a risk, (despite some incorrect allegations)? Disc brakes have been permitted in BC races for three years at least, including provincial championships, with no incidents I am aware of.

The cost of a ban is high. For youth riders in particular, disc brakes are a large improvement in safety in bad weather and for small hands. In my club, more than 20% of the youth riders use a disc bike, most of them so one bike will work for cyclocross and road. Should they be forced to buy another bike because of a hysterical reaction of a Spanish pro, who it has been shown was not cut by a disc?

Also, we should bear in mind the source organization of the current demand to ban discs. The CPA is the same organization that protested helmets, doping controls, doping control chaperones, police searches of hotels and cars at UCI races for illegal and banned substances. And also stood by while 30 riders died in their sleep from EPO, and continues to ignore the dangers of poor braking on carbon rims (in wet and hot weather in particular.) They do not have an unblemished record of good policy recommendations.

I look forward to speaking soon.

Yours in cycling

Lister Farrar
youth coach
Tripleshot cycling club.

[Lister Farrar]

As for ways to contribute, anyone can write to CBC and CCC. Letters count like votes.

I haven't had time to engage CCC, but I hear they are adamant about banning discs; last week anyway. I've been busy so far trying to keep our kids access to Robert Cameron Law series June 3-5, from which the officials have said they will ban discs. And Provincials June 10-12.

Cycling BC care of Jim Richards, ED (staff), jim@cyclingbc.ca, president Brett Boniface (elected) president@cyclingbc.net

and Cycling Canada care of CEO (staff) Greg Mathieu: greg.mathieu@cyclingcanada.ca), president (elected) John Tolkamp john.tolkamp@gmail.com

[David Hill]

So I guess we (ie: the Tripleshot Board) don't have to worry about disc brakes in the VCL or the speedway races. Whew. That was going to be a major headache anyways....

But Dave, speaking of the big causes of injury, ie: gravity and pavement, I'm reminded of the last time I did this (see photo, ie: jumping out of a big-assed bird with a rifle, a rucksack and snowshoes) I didn't have to worry about pavement. The gravity was extremely useful, even though it was the cyclists' other worst enemy (wind) which ended up making me swim ashore from the pond I landed in....
Damned wind!

Jeez, Alan... What were you thinking!?!!!

Snowshoes are not very aero!

[Paul C.]

I have not fully read all of the above 28 posts....so I apologize if my questions have already been addressed.

At coffee this a.m., with the TTT group and the women's ride group
one of the new, keen women asked me if I thought she could do our WSW event on her shiny new road bike with disc brakes????
Also, her and a number of other enthusiastic Tripleshot women are doing the Prospera Gran Fondo. Same question.

While we are at it...how about the Masters series, 55+ games or Tour de Victoria ???

I told her I was not sure,and to watch this space for more information. It would be a shame if some of the women in the current clinic that have disc brakes where not allowed to do WSW.

[Der Radfahrer]

As for ways to contribute, anyone can write to CBC and CCC. Letters count like votes.

I haven't had time to engage CCC, but I hear they are adamant about banning discs; last week anyway. I've been busy so far trying to keep our kids access to Robert Cameron Law series June 3-5, from which the officials have said they will ban discs. And Provincials June 10-12.

Cycling BC care of Jim Richards, ED (staff), jim@cyclingbc.ca, president Brett Boniface (elected) president@cyclingbc.net

and Cycling Canada care of CEO (staff) Greg Mathieu: greg.mathieu@cyclingcanada.ca), president (elected) John Tolkamp john.tolkamp@gmail.com

Hey guys, Jon Watkin here.

While I commend Lister and others for petitioning Cycling BC/Cycling Canada to change the rules regarding disc brakes, we also have to work together to find temporary and creative solutions to get racers, especially affected Tripleshot kids, to race...especially my event, the Robert Cameron Law Cycling Series.

Lister advised that he had already tried to convince Wayne Pomario, who is the Road/Track Chief Official for Cycling Canada, to follow suit with USA Cycling and permit discs in regionall/state events. However, his initial conversations were unsuccessful and, in my opinion, will not likely to sway Cycling Canada's decision.

There is the belief that Cycling BC UCI officials have some arbitrary autonomy in deciding what rules they can enforce or not. This may be true, however because this disc brake issue is a hot topic (no pun intended), and Cycling Canada has emphasized their position to all Canada UCI officials, this leaves officials with no choice. Here is one quote from a Cycling BC official"

"To put it bluntly I will not take the financial risk of being uninsured. As background a directive or advisory issued by a person or group that is not legally privileged to do so has no legal ground. As Wayne (Pomario) explained CBC, CCA are bound to uphold UCI rules, as we now know that, we cannot claim ignorance and so directives not upholding UCI for us should be ignored the failure to do so would leave you and I exposed to litigation without the support the insurance of UCI."

So as a race organizer, I want to do my utmost to get the kids racing my event, and to propose some creative/collaborative solutions while Lister and others continue to try to convince Cycling Canada to change their rules.

It is my understanding that Tripleshot has 3-6 kids who are currently racing bikes with disc brakes. It is my understanding that some parents are totally fine with finding a non-disc brake bikes to use for my event.

Russ Hays has already offered to loan conventional road bikes for the weekend of the Cameron Law Race. If asked, I am sure other bike shops and local racers will assist. I have a 54cm Specialized Tarmac Expert that I am more than happy to offer as a loaner. Rather than put all of our eggs in one basket and try to stare down Cycling BC/Cycling Canada, lets also focus on the kids and get them racing and not be distracted by this stuff.

What do you guys think?

Jon

[John D]

Hi Jon;

You are 100% correct - while the disk brake issue with Cycling BC/Cycling Canada is unlikely to be resolved any time soon (and almost certainly not before the Cameron Law Series), the immediate issue of getting kids on non-disk bikes to race in the CLS is one that can be.

Thanks very much to the folks at Russ Hays for your generous offer of loaner bikes for any Tripleshot juniors who ride disk bikes. If nobody else claims it I may take you up on the offer of the Tarmac Expert myself.

Tripleshot currently has 13 volunteers in place to help with the Dallas Road TT. At the start of this morning's ride I reminded people that we're really looking for about 30 volunteers. I'm sure other club members will step up shortly.

Cheers,
John

[AJ Neale]

Not that it will help resolve this issue, but CBC posted some images from Fort McMurray including the attached that may help put things into perspective.

Andrew

Kudos to Lister for his efforts at promoting common sense, and to Russ Hays and others for making bikes available for the juniors.

[JohnT]

If you want the CyclingBC response (i.e., the details) I'll send you their letter:

The one-sentence summary: No disk brakes in VCL.

A 'grace period' (till June 13th) gets us through the next two Speedway races (as far as liability is concerned) but if you plan to race, you'll need a non-disk option and you might as well sort that out now.

Cheers,

JT

[Bosie]

HI John,

From this, it sound like you are going to allow disc brakes at Speedway until June 12.

I posted on the VCL FB page and they say that they will be banned in all VCL races even before June 12..

Can you clarify?

Obviously this affects a number of Juniors who wont be able to race any more

Craig

[owen]

My guess is the lawyers did some due-diligence and said "You're still liable until June" and CBC/VCL went "no grace period".

Maybe they can re-insure VCL races as tarmac only cross races?

[JohnT]

From the Wheelers web site:

Following the UCI ‘s recent suspension of their trial of disc brakes in road races, Cycling Canada and the Cycling BC have prohibited the use of disc brakes in road events at national and UCI events. Cycling BC will be enforcing this ban on disc brakes in competitive road events sanctioned at the provincial level, beginning June 13th, 2016.

My advise is for racers to show up with regular brakes next Wednesday - It will be settled by then and it is easy to guess which way things will go.

JT

[David Hill]

I'm really disappointed that we are taking this decision for our own VCL on Wednesday at the Speedway.

We don't need to use CBC commissionaires, and as far as I know, neither the the club nor VCL can be held liable for any injuries sustained due to disc brakes (of which there have never been any, other than me cutting my finger cleaning my daughter's bike and sticking my finger into the spinning rotor like an idiot)...

The only evidence I have heard that disc brakes are (more) dangerous is from people who say "I believe they are dangerous" or "I really feel they are dangerous", or even "they are dangerous." Not exactly the empirical evidence we should be relying on, is it? Meanwhile, the evidence of thousands of person-kilometres raced without serious incident shows their relative safety.

Other races around the province are allowing them, and using non-CBC volunteers to marshall and support the race. I would be proud of Tripleshot if we stood up for logic and inclusiveness, and allowed them, especially for junior riders.

This only affects a few riders, I get it. But the solution of "come with regular brakes" is not the same as saying "come with lights"... this requires a whole different bike.

Anyway, I won't go on. I appreciate the hard work that goes into organizing and running these races (sign me up to help next week!), and respect the tough choices that we have to make. I'm not mad... just really disappointed...

[Bosie]

Has anyone actually spoken to the insurers? Here and in BC?

This "feels" to me like those in favor of banning disc brakes are using "insurance and liability" as an excuse, but have we verified this? It wouldnt be the first time concerns like this have been brought forward as fact when they were actually just the confident musings of someone with a strong opinion.

Like David, I am disappointed, as it limits my sons ability to race and puts me in a position whereby I now have to consider buying another bike for him so that he can do the sport he loves.

I also appreciate the efforts of those who organize the races and appreciate the position they find themselves in. Clearly this is not their doing and clearly we need to support our friends who are doing this.

GIven that the US has been allowing disc brakes for ever, I would be very surprised if the insurers genuinely are against this, or wouldnt be open to negotiating a clause allowing disc brakes.

Perhaps we need to have a separate VCL series on the Island separate to Cycling BC to allow kids the ability to use their Cross Bikes as Road Bikes and to allow more kids access to the sport.

As someone said- perhaps we just call these races Cross races on tarmac...

Which also brings up the point that we need decent representation at at Cycling BC level. The Board elections are soon and "expressions of interest" for positions need to be in by May 15. Are any of the members of the club interested in running for this position?

[JohnT]

This just in:

Hi All,

I received a call from cycling bc this morning to take down the email they sent me as they will be sending us an official letter. Please do so asap but put a blurb NO DISC BRAKES ALLOWED IN VCL SERIES AS PER CYCLING BC/ CYCLING CANADA/ UCI AND IN COMPLIANCE WITH OUR INSURANCE.

Cheers,
Ryan Arbuckle
Team Manager

It seems to me that chainrings are more dangerous, especially ones that have been sharpened by a stretched chain. But, all the talk about disk brakes provides an opportunity for a lawsuit, even if there's no basis for it. Checking with insurers would be a great idea. But it is not one I will be following up on before next Wednesday.

JT