broken frame--A2 rolled on

[mfarnham]

Hey folks,

On the A2 ride this morning, three of us (me, Richard, Andrew) ended up shelled by the group at KGT because we went back to make sure a member of our group who had broken his frame had a way to get home. This followed a debate at the top of KGT about whether we should go back to check on him. That's not really a point that should ever be debated. Anytime someone has a mechanical, the group stops, makes sure the person get fixed up or has a way home, and--only once everything's sorted--then rolls on. If some people are very pressed for time, there may be a discussion about splitting the group, but that discussion happens before any subset of the group moves on.

All it would have taken would have been a 2 minute pause to make sure he was sorted and then everyone else could have finished the ride together.

I know A2 is now a drop ride, but all groups are always supposed to wait up for mechanicals, no questions asked. It's not C's responsibility to take care of other groups' mechanicals. So, why did A2 roll on this morning?

Martin

[Rolf]

Tough situation, Martin. This raises an interesting point about the distinction between dropping riders because they can't keep the pace and dropping riders because they suffer a mechanical. I wonder, practically speaking, how to handle the distinction in terms of ride expectations.

It raises the question: if a rider on the A1 (ie. the original "A") ride has a mechanical, is that ride immediately neutralized and does everyone stop to help out? I think I can only recall once, maybe twice, passing an A group stopped and fixing a flat etc.

Of course, this may be for the practical reason that by the time someone realizes they've got a mechanical, they're so far off the back their yell doesn't carry quickly and far enough! Or, it could be because hammerheads are more prone to scrubbing their steeds with toothbrushes before rides and therefore have better-maintained bikes. Though if A2 actually took the time to debate the abandonment this morning (however briefly), then neither of these factors are in play.

I'd appreciate hearing from some regular A1 riders regarding the culture or expectations from that group. Because rolling on despite someone having a mechanical strikes me as totally fine—provided that is the expectation of everyone on the ride.

Is this simply growing pains for people transitioning from B1 to A2, or does it speak to a deep and selfish malaise permeating our wonderful club—a club that was built on the promise of mutual support and assistance?

[barton bourassa]

We need to look out for each other. Whatever that takes.

Don't really care what group you are in, as has been said many times, the most important person on a TSC ride is everyone else. That should always be foremost on our mind as we ride.

Barton.

[trevor]

When there's a mechanical on the A ride one of the following things happen:
- the victim doesn't let the group know. In my experience this happens for a variety of reasons. One, the victim deems they don't need any help and takes the task on solo. Two, they don't want to impact the group's mojo. And three, they feel they have enough time to fix the issue and jump in with another group.
- the group slows and is told to continue on
- or the group stops altogether
Etiquette and responsibility call for the rider to call out "mechanical" and for the group to stop. Absolutely.
This thread is a good reminder.
Cheers,
Trevor

[John D]

We have an A2 group now? Cool.

[Claire]

My perspective: The mechanical consisted of a Di2 derailleur being completely ripped off the bike. This was no roadside repair job, so the rider was going to have to walk or call for help as no one on the ride could have fixed the problem. Also, at KGT, the ride is nearly done and there is lots of nearby civilization. Certainly the group would have stuck around to help with a rescue if we'd been out in the stix, but we were within walking distance of telephones, taxis and coffee shops.

Maybe this is a little presumptuous, but I believe we are all (or should be!) responsible adults with the means to rescue ourselves in the face of a major mechanical problem. I suspect this was more or less the mindset of those who trundled on down the hill this morning. But I welcome other perspectives.

I am ready to activate my forcefield to deflect any stones or mud that may be hurled my way.

[Bosie]

Interesting topic.
I tend to agree with Trevor and Rolf that the culture of the rides in the As and A2/ B1s is slightly different to others. My impression is that if you sign up for a "drop ride" you kind of accept there is a chance you might be solving your problems alone...
If someone does shout mechanical though, it seems reasonable that its a cry for help and the ride should stop.
But, like buying coffee, its not something that everyone has to, and likely should do every time, but you should take your turn?
The more interesting scenario is when middle aged guys like myself drop off the back of drop rides clutching their chests without a sound

[AJ Neale]

Hi Martin and all,

I agree that it is pretty important for the group (every group) to hear a definite "I'm good, keep rolling" or "He/She has assistance and wants the group to carry on". Although I did go back with you to check on the broken frame rider ( a good band name Allan? ), I was also guilty of riding to the top of King George when there was a definite mechanical behind me.... as in "ting, clang, CLUNK". Never a good combination of sounds. To complicate matters, I believe the B1/A2 group was mixed up with the C group and the road was full of people. I was expecting a report of some kind but only heard a vague "I think we're good to go" so I was happy to reverse and feel 100% that everything was OK. The advantage of being shelled ( or "voluntarily giving a head start"? ) was the interval workout we got trying to bridge back up to the group before Beacon Hill Park ..... nice work Richard and Martin!

As Trevor and Claire pointed out, every situation is different as is the reaction. On a Sunday ride it seems obvious that everyone stops to help/watch/mock a flat repair near Saanichton so we can complete the ride together, whereas if I flat on the 4th lap of the 3rd set on a Thursday morning I would want and expect the group to carry on .... I'm fine with fixing things myself. I would say the key is for the rider with the problem to ask for assistance if required, and clearly state they want the group to continue...... the group needs to collect and wait for the word, pretty simple. And if things occasionally fall apart, we can all understand that sometimes ..........things fall apart. No harm is ever intended, no selfish malaise is allowed, and post-ride coffee always soothes!

Andrew

P.S. Congratulations Martin: I think you have officially christened the A2 ride!

[Andrew]

To chime in.

The As:
Ask are you ok? You got what you need? ... and the reply is invariably "yup"
If the answer is no, we should help
Generally don't want the group to stop as it would ruin the ride.
Often the group is already well down the road
Have well maintained gear and have the skills and kit to self rescue.
Nobody feels bad when the group rolls on

We must all expect to:
Deal with our own basic mechanicals when you are an A/B
Carry a tube, pump, levers, multi-tool, patch kit, tire boot, cell phone, ID + visa/taxi fare/coffee money
If you mechanical can't be fixed with this, you are limping home, walking or calling for a ride and anybody stopping to help is really only going to provide company and condolences until the real help comes.

We must stop for medical/crashes/injury and when we are in remote places
We can't leave anybody where they may be in personal danger ie ESP juniors

The A2 ride is needed to bridge the huge gap between A1 and B1

[mfarnham]

I’m sure there’s nothing we could have done to help the person with the wrecked derailleur get their bike back on the road. But I think checking to make sure they have a charged cell phone and cab fare is good practice. Turns out Richard was already doing this. It’s kind of a shame to punish his good deed by ditching him. It’s a good thing to have people to check in—at least quickly—on mechanicals. Having a policy of “you should be prepared so we’re not going to wait” punishes those who slow up to ask if the person needs help, and it creates an incentive for people to look the other way and keep riding when mechanicals occur. I don’t think this improves our ride.

There’s really very little lost by checking to see if someone needs help. Someone’s average speed on Strava might end up a tenth of a km slower, but the rest of the ride will be just as peppy and competitive as if we left the person without checking in on them. In fact, if A2 had waited on Tuesday, you’d have had 3 extra riders--who closed half the gap on your slow asses after you ditched them--with fresh legs in the sprint. Maybe that’s the real reason you rode on.

Cheers.
Martin

[Andrew]

I’m sure there’s nothing we could have done to help the person with the wrecked derailleur get their bike back on the road. But I think checking to make sure they have a charged cell phone and cab fare is good practice. Turns out Richard was already doing this. It’s kind of a shame to punish his good deed by ditching him. It’s a good thing to have people to check in—at least quickly—on mechanicals. Having a policy of “you should be prepared so we’re not going to wait” punishes those who slow up to ask if the person needs help, and it creates an incentive for people to look the other way and keep riding when mechanicals occur. I don’t think this improves our ride.

There’s really very little lost by checking to see if someone needs help. Someone’s average speed on Strava might end up a tenth of a km slower, but the rest of the ride will be just as peppy and competitive as if we left the person without checking in on them. In fact, if A2 had waited on Tuesday, you’d have had 3 extra riders--who closed half the gap on your slow asses after you ditched them--with fresh legs in the sprint. Maybe that’s the real reason you rode on.

Cheers.
Martin

We definitely have to slow and check on each other and not leave those doing the checking behind.

[bisonesque]

It is clearly time for a more sophisticated segmentation and categorization to be put in place.

A
A2 - Drop everybody
A2a - Drop everybody unless mortally injured
A2b - Drop everybody unless mortally injured or bike catastrophically damaged
A2c - Drop some people as you see fit
A2d - Drop slow people only
B1 - No drop, unless there is no A2. In which case, you are A2 and see above.
B2...Bx - No Drop
C

Cheers
Alex

[Stéphane Tran]

Today's A ride: drop everyone whether they have a mechanical or not.