In the last few weeks there have been a few people complaining that when we finish the sprint at Beacon Hill park in our respective groups, others who have already finished their sprint are jumping in to join the sprints of those after them. As a member of the board, I'm curious whether we need a discussion about this and how others feel when the A's or "upper level" B riders hijack a lesser group's sprint?
Personally I'm agnostic and I'm not sure it's a problem. I've seen those who are quite respectful and will join a new sprint helping and pulling (ie: Peter L. the manly-man that he is) and I've seen the occasional A-hole (no names mentioned) who rudely jumps in to win the sprint of the B3-group, which I would say is narcissistic and truly unmanly.
My personal preference would be the old adage: "You dance with the one who brung you" and if you start with the B1s, you sprint with the B1s and then go have coffee. I would, however be open to having a forum discussion to see what others think.
I havent seen this phenomenon, but I would be curious if the people accused are jumping in after their sprint is finished or are being dropped by the group in front and then jumping on to the group for the final sprint?
I think the latter is a more interesting issue than the former (which would seem a little narcissistic as you point out).
If the latter, at what point does the Sprint with those who brung you start? If you get dropped on the Beacon hill laps, or at Clover Point, or KGH?
Similar story on Mondays- if you get dropped by a B1 group on the box and end up on a group behind, when can you sprint- After a lap?
Of course if you can still muster a Sprint after being dropped, you probably shouldnt have been dropped in the first place
I think there's somewhat of an unspoken etiquette with this one and I love Alan's "dance with the one who brung ya" metaphor.
In the same vein as hanging on to the back of a group all ride (because you are unable to contribute by pulling through) and then kicking in the sprint is lame, so is being dropped and then snatching the sprint in a less strong group.
Know your fitness. Know your abilities. But then challenge yourself and live with the outcome.
That being said, often I have jumped in with the Bs at Beacon after our sprint is done with the lone purpose of spinning my legs with the group prior to going to coffee. At times I'll "grab a pony", as Peter would say, and lead out a strong female rider. But whatever I do I try and let the big guns have their glory after they've done their work with that particular group.
I occasionally drop in with the group behind me if they happen to overtake me on Dallas as I'm winding down from my group's sprint. I view it as an opportunity to say "hi" to some people I haven't yet had the chance to talk to that morning and get an extra lap or two in. Seems like the right thing to do then is to give someone a pull who doesn't already look like a guaranteed sprint winner. I've benefited from Peter L's pulls in the past (I never look like a guaranteed sprint winner, except possibly when on his wheel).
I guess one warning is that if you're joining a group that's rotating, you want to announce your arrival so someone who's memorized the lineup doesn't pull out into your wheel. A corollary to that is that if you're rotating in the park, it's probably a good idea to always look back in the rotation to make sure you're really next in line.
Anyway, I personally wouldn't rule out joining the group behind, but I'm happy to conform to the group decision on this, and I fully support the "no sandbagging" rule.
As you and Trevor have pointed out, there are certainly "polite" ways to join a different sprint group in Beacon Hill - either to just say hello or to give someone a lead-out. I think what Alan was referring to is the less than polite practice of jumping onto another group and then trying to win their sprint.
Thanks for bringing this issue up on the forum Alan.
I know in the grand scheme of things it is a super minor issue, so not to make too much of a deal about it.. but it could also be a safety and comfort issue.
I brought it up the other day after being pushed out of our sprint by incoming riders (who had either been dropped in their sprint or wanted some more riding). I did not feel comfortable with the tactics and riding of the incoming riders and it wasn't worth it.. so I dropped out.
I have benefited many a time from a wheel graciously given to me by the likes of Peter, Eric P and a whole host of others. That being said, I do think if you didn't ride with said group headed into Beacon Hill for the laps, don't tag on UNLESS you are trying to help pull up a rider from the back. When you think about it, it totally makes sense.. a bit of a no-brainer.
When I finish the sprint with my "dance group" I typically head straight to coffee, and more often than not I'm the first to arrive at Moka House.
I wonder if (further to John D.'s gentle reminder on Sept 21) jumping in and riding laps with other groups is, for some, a sure-fire way to maintain a spotless record of never buying coffee.
It's certainly a lot less conspicuous than loitering a safe distance from the coffee shop door and tinkering with your taillight until you're certain someone else has stepped up and ordered coffee.
Alan...sorry to hijack your sprint-hijacking peeve with a peeve of my own...
A couple weeks ago I was riding B2 and we had a smooth group with everyone taking their pulls. As I started nearing the final laps of Beacon Hill I start thinking about the sprint finish and what tactic I might use when along comes Peter L and the whole group gets messed up as it seemed as though everyone was trying to get on his wheel because he is known to do a nice lead out.
I have also benefited from a Peter L lead out in the past and really enjoyed it but at the same time, it messed up our rotations and our flow and entirely changed what the finish would have been.
I'm not trying to point fingers here.
My thoughts are, feel free to hop in the back of the group and socialize, or give tips, but don't do anything that would effect the result of the sprint. Same would go for an A ride, if you've been dropped don't jump back in and contest or lead out the sprint, but do jump in and hang in the back. It's kinda lame when you've been riding together for a good hour, and in the final minutes, someone comes in and hijacks the climax of the ride.
Lund wrote:So - just who the heck are you and what have you done with the real Calgary Steve?!
Due to an old head injury, I suffer periodic lapses in heartlessness and cynicism. Don't worry – they're fleeting and rare. I'll be back to myself in no time.
I think this is more than " a super minor issue "... sorry Paula ,
as it also involves safety.
I understand the lead-out discussions as I have also enjoyed Peter's lead-out,
and I have also joined a group at the end and then lead out someone.
However I think this creates too much of a "grey "area.
So I agree with Allen's first post....and I feel it is ok to join another group,
before about half way through the ride???? I am not sure how to apply all of this to
Tuesday sprints at the box.
If it works out that you happen to join another group before Beacon Hill, be respectful. Find out what is going on and go with the flow!
If you are finished your laps of Beacon and just have not had enough yet and you want to jump on to a passing group that is not quite done yet, same thing. Find out what is happening by watching and waiting. Hang at the back maybe? Join in but don't interfere and let people know you are there.
As Aretha Franklin always says, R E S P E C T! Caution, common sense, respect.
My two cents is that Beacon lap etiquette, in the 'A' group at least, should mimic race etiquette. Just as lapped riders in crit races can rejoin the leaders but most not contest the final sprint so it should also be for dropped 'A' riders. My opinion is that if you are dropped before or at Beacon, rejoin the remaining riders as they come 'round but don't mess with their sprint. They've earned it.
