Blowing the Stop Sign on Mt Doug x rd and Blenkinsop

[Josh.E]

I've been putting off posting this, what with all the attention sh*t cyclists of Victoria has been getting lately.

Last Friday morning (May 29th) I happened to be driving up blenkinsop around 6:15AM to go hiking in mt Doug.
Just as I got to mt doug x rd, the A ride came around the corner at the stop sign. The first 4 guys or so had time, and stayed tight as they took the corner. The rest of the group however, blew the stop sign and pulled out right in front of me, with a few guys almost going to the centre line.

I had to actually brake and go over the center line to avoid the group. From the point of view of a driver, even someone who totally understands group rides, it looked REALLY bad. On low visibility intersections like that the group really needs to come to a complete stop. Lead riders should not proceed through a stop sign when there is a car approaching unless there is enough time for the WHOLE group to make it through safely.

On pro city team rides a few years ago, we had a policy on the group rides of actually coming to a complete stop at stop signs, since we were wearing trek store kits, and wanted to not generate negative publicity.

[wonger]

+ 1

This has been happening way to often on our rides, whether it is a stop sign or an amber light or whatever. I like the idea of the complete stop policy.

[mfarnham]

Yes.
Martin

[Alan]

I like the idea of the complete stop policy, except when i'm wearing my Hotel Zed kit, then I suggest blowing through the stop sign at high speed, making special effort to flip the bird to any motorists in the vicinity, and suggesting to them, in a voice loud enough to be heard several blocks away, that they should "Go have sex with a duck!" (or words to that effect). Geoff, ask Mandy if she's ok with that plan....some companies would pay handsomely for that kind of edgy marketing...

[wonger]

I like the idea of the complete stop policy, except when i'm wearing my Hotel Zed kit, then I suggest blowing through the stop sign at high speed, making special effort to flip the bird to any motorists in the vicinity, and suggesting to them, in a voice loud enough to be heard several blocks away, that they should "Go have sex with a duck!" (or words to that effect). Geoff, ask Mandy if she's ok with that plan....some companies would pay handsomely for that kind of edgy marketing...

YOU ask Mandy!

[dreeves]

Josh, I was in that group a bit further back and saw it all clearly. Thankfully it was you in that car. I don't know what the guys in the front were thinking.

There are no cycling scouts on route looking for 35-75 year old talent (For everyone's information). At this point, Strava is pretty much maxed for all of the sections along our route-It would take some supreme traffic light luck, no wind and a strong group of 20 A+++ riders to make any amendments to the current KOM's.

+1 more for stopping where we are supposed to be stopping.

On another note, why are you hiking?

d

[trevor]

Sadly I've missed the last few Fridays but I'll be out this week and be sure to keep the lads in line. Josh, get on your bike.

[mfarnham]

Rumour has it that a certain cycling club in Victoria blew the stop sign at Beach and King George Terrace on Sunday, while a poor old lady in a car--who got to the stop first and had the right of way to make her right turn from KGT onto Beach--sat looking gobsmacked. This thread applies to everyone...not just the As.

Martin

[Fozzy]

Totally Martin.

Leaders have the responsibility of the pace of the group and to ensure that it is safe for the group to proceed through intersections etc.
I think we have become pretty complacent with rolling through stop signs in areas where there is little traffic like Uplands on Tuesdays, KGT on Sundays etc.
As highlighted on Friday in one of the B rides (when we were just rolling), things can happen when least expected, and if it were to have been a vehicular collision, the consequences would have been a damn sight worse.

[Josh.E]

On another note, why are you hiking?

d

It's my latest workout to try to stay fit while my neck gets better enough to handle regular riding.
Mt Doug trail ascents up the really steep trails on the back, as fast as i can climb it.
4 or 5 repeats per morning.
Doesn't quite replace riding, but ending intervals on the summit of doug at 6:30 AM with a 360 degree view is the best substitute i've found so far.....

[rhughes]

Time for a new policy--we stop at all stop signs, period!

Every ride has the same goal--everyone arrives safe.

Ritchie

[Bosie]

This morning, again, there was a fairly close shave for some of the outside riders on the corner of Henderson and Lansdowne when they cornered into an oncoming car. The Driver looked terrified encountering a group of cyclists flying into her lane at 40km/hr. It wasnt cool and, in my opinion, its not any one persons fault- its the collective responsibility of the group/ club.

Now I am a newbie (and I cant profess to being completely innocent when it comes to shooting stop signs and traffic lights-But Im learning and thanks to the leadership of some of the members I am changing my ways ). It did occur to me however, that one way of making the Tuesday ride much safer would be to change it to loops around UVIC. Whilst this would be somewhat similar to the Thursday ride and would require something like a 4/ 4 lap ride with sprints on 4 and 8 (instead of the current 2/2), it would take away BOTH the Lansdowne and Cadboro bay blind corners. Admittedly one would lose the corners, but the relative improved safety should make it worth it. There would also likely be more passing of groups, but its more manageable on the double lane circuit up there?

Its probably been considered before but....

In addition, I cannot help thinking that without some sort of policy and fairly strictly adhering to it, we will likely continue to have near misses etc. until someone gets hurt. A policy shouldnt change the ride, it should just make it safer. But the culture of the group/ ride needs to all agree and do it: I was recently on another groups Saturday ride when I blew a traffic light - the group leaders came to me and rightly admonished me for the offence. The following week, on the same ride, we were a big group. A traffic light changed and I got through with the first half of the peloton. The second half stopped. The same group leaders looked back and said we should just carry on without them. Kind of defeated the purpose as it created the environment which put a premium on shooting the traffic light in subsequent weeks.

Count me as someone who would favor a stop at all stops policy..

Craig

[Alan]

Just a bit of history Craig: We used to do regular rides around the UVIC circle, but moved to the box for several reasons, most of which had to do with wildlife, bunnies (now not a problem, and mmm, they were tasty), students and deer. The worst problem was the sprinklers. UVic groundskeepers like to water the road and with the sprinklers going all summer they result in lots of splattered Tripleshot cyclists because no one has fenders in the summer. That I think was the main reason we moved to the box. The other reason might have had to do with the other real pests at UVic, known as students, who I remembered caused a lot of close calls because we are deadly: we move fast, and silently, like a nuclear submarine. Very dangerous to students. The box is probably the better bet even though our behaviour needs constant improvements...

[John D]

Not that I'm advocating a switch from the box to the UVic Ring Road, but just for the record....

The Tuesday C-ride has been riding the Ring for the past year and I can report that there are no more bunnies, the sprinklers have (nearly all) been redirected so as not to water the road, and students aren't an issue before 7:00am.

J.

[Robgrant]

Kenji and I were at the front this AM rounding Lansdowne to Henderson. We yelled 'car' as we rounded the apex, but were travelling at 40 +km/h. The hedge near the corner makes it difficult to see up Henderson very far when you are on Lansdowne. If she was travelling 40 as well, the closing rate of 80km/h is about 20m/s, we should have been able to see her about 1/2-1 second earlier and slowed the group down. I apologize we didn't get our heads up and see the danger earlier- really the whole point of the front riders. I'm glad everyone made a tidy corner.
If you find yourself in a similar situation, and you are on the outside (closest to running into the car), one solution is to skip the corner, continue straight on and live to ride another day. Those on the inside better make the corner in their own lane.
Rob

[mfarnham]

A few thoughts:

1) Personally, I'm OK with rolling through a stop sign where you have a clear view and there's no traffic coming (counting pedestrians as traffic). However, "all stops all the time" might be an easier policy to implement than having specific rules and contingencies for different intersections.

2) The issue is often not the leaders, but the people in the middle. The leaders may roll through a stop or yield that's clear at the time they reach it, but it may go from clear to not clear and then individuals in the middle of the paceline need to take the initiative to call out "stopping!" and bring the group behind them to a stop. Group inertia is difficult to overcome. If everyone thinks, "One more rider can make it..." and keeps rolling on that logic, then we'll never stop. Supposing you're right at the intersection when you spot the incoming traffic...you may not be able to stop safely, but it may be worth yelling "stopping!" anyway to get the message back down the line. Of course, an all-stops-all-the-time policy removes this problem (though the problem remains at Yield signs--see below).

3) There's no stop at Henderson and Lansdowne, but it seems fair to say that if someone calls "car" people should slow down and tighten up on that turn. Same with similar turns elsewhere. Call out "slowing!" or "neutral!" to remind people--not everyone reads these posts. Be vocal in the group.

4) Since the box has been discussed, the Yield lanes on the three other corners worry me more than the Henderson/Lansdowne intersection. At those Yields we can have traffic coming at full speed to share the lane with us on very short notice. A Yield should be treated as a Stop if we're about to come into conflict with traffic that has the right of way. It's not fair to drivers to throw ourselves in front of them and expect them to swing wide or slam on the brakes to avoid us. Also, look for left turners joining our traffic flow at those yields. Again, people in the middle should take the initiative to bring the back end of the group to a stop if needed.

5) One tricky issue with the "full stop at all stops" policy is whether we stop and roll as a group, or each rider stops individually, or whether we do something in between. If there's traffic waiting at the other stops, I think it's rude for us to roll as a group, especially if there are big numbers. I've heard people say, "We count as one vehicle" and we might be about the length of a big truck, but that's not what the law says and it's not what drivers expect. It may make sense by reasonable logic to roll as a group, but not if it's going to piss off drivers who don't understand why it makes sense and who have the law on their side.

6) If we're going to reset how we deal with these intersections/situations this needs to be talked about at the start of rides and as we approach those intersections. It's dangerous to have a few people suddenly behaving differently in the group especially at 35kmh or faster. We need everyone aligned--whether they agree with the policy or not--to keep everyone safe.

Ciao!
Martin

[Lister Farrar]

A few thoughts:

1) Personally, I'm OK with rolling through a stop sign where you have a clear view and there's no traffic coming (counting pedestrians as traffic). However, "all stops all the time" might be an easier policy to implement than having specific rules and contingencies for different intersections.

2) The issue is often not the leaders, but the people in the middle. The leaders may roll through a stop or yield that's clear at the time they reach it, but it may go from clear to not clear and then individuals in the middle of the paceline need to take the initiative to call out "stopping!" and bring the group behind them to a stop. Group inertia is difficult to overcome. If everyone thinks, "One more rider can make it..." and keeps rolling on that logic, then we'll never stop. Supposing you're right at the intersection when you spot the incoming traffic...you may not be able to stop safely, but it may be worth yelling "stopping!" anyway to get the message back down the line. Of course, an all-stops-all-the-time policy removes this problem (though the problem remains at Yield signs--see below).

3) There's no stop at Henderson and Lansdowne, but it seems fair to say that if someone calls "car" people should slow down and tighten up on that turn. Same with similar turns elsewhere. Call out "slowing!" or "neutral!" to remind people--not everyone reads these posts. Be vocal in the group.

4) Since the box has been discussed, the Yield lanes on the three other corners worry me more than the Henderson/Lansdowne intersection. At those Yields we can have traffic coming at full speed to share the lane with us on very short notice. A Yield should be treated as a Stop if we're about to come into conflict with traffic that has the right of way. It's not fair to drivers to throw ourselves in front of them and expect them to swing wide or slam on the brakes to avoid us. Also, look for left turners joining our traffic flow at those yields. Again, people in the middle should take the initiative to bring the back end of the group to a stop if needed.

5) One tricky issue with the "full stop at all stops" policy is whether we stop and roll as a group, or each rider stops individually, or whether we do something in between. If there's traffic waiting at the other stops, I think it's rude for us to roll as a group, especially if there are big numbers. I've heard people say, "We count as one vehicle" and we might be about the length of a big truck, but that's not what the law says and it's not what drivers expect. It may make sense by reasonable logic to roll as a group, but not if it's going to piss off drivers who don't understand why it makes sense and who have the law on their side.

6) If we're going to reset how we deal with these intersections/situations this needs to be talked about at the start of rides and as we approach those intersections. It's dangerous to have a few people suddenly behaving differently in the group especially at 35kmh or faster. We need everyone aligned--whether they agree with the policy or not--to keep everyone safe.

Ciao!
Martin

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[Ddallin]

While on the topic of suggestions, Cedar Hill X and Cadboro Bay Rd IS a stop sign, where many of us on lap 1 and 3 roll through as a group, as opposed to lap 2 and 4 (sprint laps) where we often have more time as the group collects itself.

Suggestion, all 4 laps should be sprint laps. This would allow us all to stop at the Cedar Hill X and Cadboro Bay Rd stop sign. Not only is it a stop sign, but it is also where many cars travel at higher than posted speeds. Not to mention that it also gets quite slippery in the wet.

[bikehart]

Interesting...sprint each lap, it might be fun as well.

[roadflasj]

As a sprinter guy who can't climb or TT worth beans that's the best idea yet. Maybe we could try it out next Tuesday ride?