Critical Incident Report

[Alan]

We were talking over coffee today after the Farmer's ride that it would be a good idea to start documenting and 'reporting' on crashes that happen in our group.
For example there was a crash on Tuesday's ride, ("Bollard Al" and Eric P. went down) and no one knows about it. The problem with no one knowing about it, is that there might be one teeny-weeny bit of advice that emerges from a post-mortem on that crash that will prevent future crashes. So, what I'm thinking is very simple. After each 'incident' someone does a very brief narrative, a who— what— where-- thing, and then invites comments from those who either witnessed it or were in it. Maybe after sufficient feedback is received someone writes a brief few lines, summarizing a lesson or two that can be learned to prevent that incident from happening again. (ie: watch this particular corner on wet days or, keep an eye out on this set of manhole covers, or don't follow too closely at this point, look out for racoons emerging from bushes at this point, etc). I don't want to make this complicated, but I would like to think that over time we are growing our collective intelligence by studying crashes in a semi-methodical way so that riding with Tripleshot becomes safer and safer. I'm going to take this idea to the board, and we'll discuss if we want to institute something on our website, or how else we might manage it. Thoughts anyone?

[waverider]

I spend a fair amount of time on advrider.com (my other two wheels came with an engine...). They have an entire subforum called Face Plant for this same idea. Opportunity to share, whether solo or group, what went wrong and what could have been done to avoid it. Good idea!

(and while sort of on the subject and not to detract too much...I'd love to see a "Wrenching" subforum here for threads on the mechanics of maintaining, repairing, etc. your bike).

[Lund]

The problem with no one knowing about it, is that there might be one teeny-weeny bit of advice that emerges from a post-mortem on that crash that will prevent future crashes.

Um...can we not call it a post-mortem? That has jinx written all over it.

[John D]

I'm somewhat wary of creating a "permanent record" of accident reports. The accidents I have seen have all been just that...pure accidents. And they usually happen without more than a second's notice.

It is therefore possible that the "facts" that get reported in the "accident report" may not, in fact, be an accurate portrayal of what actually transpired. There is also a right to privacy concern - insofar that that those directly involved may not want all the gory details posted (for whatever reason). There is also the possibility that such information could even be used by a third party for other purposes (e.g in cases where insurance issues come into play).

Let's keep things the way they are - if there are specific lessons that can be learned after a crash, they make fine topics for the post-ride kaffeeklatsch!

Cheers,
John

[David Hill]

Have you folks seen or heard of this site?

https://bikemaps.org/

It allows people to report and keeps track of cycling data, including volume, incidents, etc. It's based out of BC, and has a lot of interesting visual data for Victoria.

It might be useful for people involved in incidents to contribute, if not for our own purposes but for some sort of greater good?

Whatever that is...come on, I'm a cyclist!

[Paula]

I think John's concerns are valid, but I still think it is a fantastic idea to post accidents and well worth doing.

My partner also reads Adv 'face plant' and he told me that the people who had the accident post it and ask for advice. They too want to learn from it.

So, to eliminate john's concern about people's privacy we could stipulate that the person or persons who had the accident are the one(s) who write the initial post.

As far as the insurance thing goes, I don't think we should become worried about doing something that could help us ride more safely because of some potential with insurance companies. IF someone is going to seek legal counsel because of a crash, they likely would not post something.

This sounds like a good topic For discussion at the agm

Paula

[John D]

I respectfully disagree. In addition to the reasons laid out in my previous message (i.e. why I think this is not a good idea) I would also ask what is expected to be gained from such post-crash reports? From the crashes I've observed over the past four years I would suggest that such tips would be confined to things like:

- don't half-wheel
- slow down when it's wet
- hold your line, no sudden braking or swerving
- don't brake while rolling through corners
- don't enter corners too sharply or at too high a speed
- don't touch wheels with the person ahead of you
- watch out for slippery things like crosswalks, manhole covers, train tracks, etc.
- avoid raccoons, deer, parked buses, peacocks, bollards, etc.

We already know all these things to be true. So is there some additional "secret knowledge" lurking out there that I'm not privvy to?

J.

[katew]

I agree with John but the whole thing makes me smile.

Even the 'face plant' group can be so summarized:

• Don't go around corners too fast;
• Don't look at that tree;
• Make sure you're going fast enough for that stunt;
• Make sure you're going slow enough for that stunt; and
• 'Dude! Hold my beer and watch this!' is not a good way to start a complicated effort.

But for all the very Intelligent and Useful reasons to officially adopt Critical Incident Reporting named upthread, the real urge is to tell stories. Everything you've discussed is the natural approach one would expect from a club of people who are or minister to career bureaucrats - Let's Create a Process. (the correct reply is, of course, 'and what's the governance model for that?')

Storytelling is baked into our psyches back to the time of caves and fires and my man Og. I have nearly shorted out my keyboard as I laugh until tears stream down my face as I read the masterfully-told tales on this board. Sure, I take away one or more of the basic points John mentioned (right, deer are bad - must avoid deer), but the real delight is Alan's take on that damned raccoon. "We went for a ride and nothing happened" is what you want to *happen*, but it is deathly dull. Stories come out when something unexpected comes up.

As a shadow member of the executive and a well-trained bureaucrat, I would like to explicitly NOT institutionalize accident reporting. As someone who keeps coming back here to hear what my friends are up to, I hope that you (with your lawyer's permission) can share a good yarn from time to time, one that illuminates life on bicycles in Victoria, one that reflects your singular take on things, and one that may or may not have a nugget of wisdom to be taken away.

[Rolf]

But for all the very Intelligent and Useful reasons to officially adopt Critical Incident Reporting named upthread, the real urge is to tell stories. Everything you've discussed is the natural approach one would expect from a club of people who are or minister to career bureaucrats - Let's Create a Process. (the correct reply is, of course, 'and what's the governance model for that?')

Storytelling is baked into our psyches back to the time of caves and fires and my man Og. I have nearly shorted out my keyboard as I laugh until tears stream down my face as I read the masterfully-told tales on this board. Sure, I take away one or more of the basic points John mentioned (right, deer are bad - must avoid deer), but the real delight is Alan's take on that damned raccoon. "We went for a ride and nothing happened" is what you want to *happen*, but it is deathly dull. Stories come out when something unexpected comes up.

As a shadow member of the executive and a well-trained bureaucrat, I would like to explicitly NOT institutionalize accident reporting. As someone who keeps coming back here to hear what my friends are up to, I hope that you (with your lawyer's permission) can share a good yarn from time to time, one that illuminates life on bicycles in Victoria, one that reflects your singular take on things, and one that may or may not have a nugget of wisdom to be taken away.

Big +1!

If I can give a cynic's take: there's no need to attempt institutionalization, as Alan suggests, because the only people that would follow through on such a scheme are the ones who will post here anyway. It's rare a spill goes unmentioned or undiscussed on the forum, and I think that's essential to promote good riding.

You may know it all after four years, John, but I think all of us can benefit from reminders of good practice. We also have a constant influx of new riders, who read crash reports on high alert and take away a great deal—no matter how "old-news" such reports are to some of us. And frankly, the newbies are often the ones that need to hear it the most.

[JohnT]

"Allan and the Raccoon" stories: Keep them coming. I could be wrong, but perhaps John had some concerns about incident reports including guesses on the events that lead to a TS member hitting and killing a jogger, or something alongs those lines..

JT