No drop Sunday ride
Moderator: mfarnham
No drop Sunday ride
So, obviously something went wrong today, because we dropped a bunch of people and then never reconnected with them. Just a couple thoughts on what we might have done differently to prevent this (feel free to disagree or correct my version of events).
I suspect what happened was that the group got broken in two by a marshall for the Terry Fox run. From my perspective, I was in the middle of the pack as we were passing runners. Then, a couple km up the road, I realized I was at the back of the pack. Those of us now at the back started talking about how we thought we’d lost some people and called “steady”. It was a big group, we’d had a little sprint and were strung out, so I wasn’t 100% sure we’d lost people, but a couple of us looped around to look. We called steady again and said we were going back, but that message obviously didn’t travel up the group because it kept going strong. We went back to a straightaway, didn’t see anyone off the back, and started to doubt whether we’d dropped people. Since the group was rapidly getting away, we turned back, a few others dropped back to help us, and we eventually caught back up to the group near Red Barn.
What went wrong? I think a combination of things:
1) People weren’t paying enough attention to what was going on behind them. As soon as we passed a race marshal (who was looking like he was going to hold up a stop sign any minute) we should have been checking back to make sure the whole group got through. The same applies to stop lights, of course.
2) I suspect the “steady up” calls never got passed all the way up the line. It’s important that when you hear a call from behind you, you don’t assume everyone in front of you heard it. Always call it forward, whether it’s a “steady up”, “car back”, “mechanical” or whatever. And if you don’t hear others calling it forward repeat it until you hear others in front of you passing it up the chain. If necessary, yell the name of someone in front of you and ask them to pass the message forward.
3) We sent people back (admittedly not far enough) but we didn’t send someone forward. If we’re sending people off the back of the group, we probably shouldn’t rely on just calling “steady up”. We should send a strong rider to the very front of the group to explain what’s going on. If people at the front had been told we might be missing riders, they probably would have soft-pedaled orstopped. The problem with people just going back (without sending someone forward), is that suddenly those people with the most information are separated from the group and as a result the group could be completely in the dark about what’s going on.
4) Those of us trying to figure out whether we’d dropped riders didn’t think carefully about what might have caused the group to split. The usual rider off the back situation is someone who’s dropped a chain or something like that and is 30 seconds or less back, so you see them easily. In this case, a marshall could have held people for 2 minutes or more. If one of us had remembered the marshall, this hopefully would have prompted us to stop the group, search further back, etc. Instead, we looked 30 seconds down the road, saw the rest of the group rapidly pulling away, and thought, “OK, maybe we didn’t lose people…we’d better get moving or we’ll be the ones dropped.”
5) We didn’t then wait at the bottom of Observatory Hill, deciding instead to wait at the top. We probably would have reconnected the group if we’d waited at the bottom. Instead, we may well have pissed them off to the point that they decided to skip Observatory, which is no good for anyone. We did wait awhile at the top, and then held out hope for reuniting at Fol Epi, but neither of those things happened.
So next time, keep aware of what’s going on behind you, shout warnings forward, send a messenger forward if people go off the back, and when in doubt, wait up.
Anyway, just my interpretation/thoughts. I could have it completely wrong, so feel free to chime in. Sorry to the folks left back today.
Martin
I suspect what happened was that the group got broken in two by a marshall for the Terry Fox run. From my perspective, I was in the middle of the pack as we were passing runners. Then, a couple km up the road, I realized I was at the back of the pack. Those of us now at the back started talking about how we thought we’d lost some people and called “steady”. It was a big group, we’d had a little sprint and were strung out, so I wasn’t 100% sure we’d lost people, but a couple of us looped around to look. We called steady again and said we were going back, but that message obviously didn’t travel up the group because it kept going strong. We went back to a straightaway, didn’t see anyone off the back, and started to doubt whether we’d dropped people. Since the group was rapidly getting away, we turned back, a few others dropped back to help us, and we eventually caught back up to the group near Red Barn.
What went wrong? I think a combination of things:
1) People weren’t paying enough attention to what was going on behind them. As soon as we passed a race marshal (who was looking like he was going to hold up a stop sign any minute) we should have been checking back to make sure the whole group got through. The same applies to stop lights, of course.
2) I suspect the “steady up” calls never got passed all the way up the line. It’s important that when you hear a call from behind you, you don’t assume everyone in front of you heard it. Always call it forward, whether it’s a “steady up”, “car back”, “mechanical” or whatever. And if you don’t hear others calling it forward repeat it until you hear others in front of you passing it up the chain. If necessary, yell the name of someone in front of you and ask them to pass the message forward.
3) We sent people back (admittedly not far enough) but we didn’t send someone forward. If we’re sending people off the back of the group, we probably shouldn’t rely on just calling “steady up”. We should send a strong rider to the very front of the group to explain what’s going on. If people at the front had been told we might be missing riders, they probably would have soft-pedaled orstopped. The problem with people just going back (without sending someone forward), is that suddenly those people with the most information are separated from the group and as a result the group could be completely in the dark about what’s going on.
4) Those of us trying to figure out whether we’d dropped riders didn’t think carefully about what might have caused the group to split. The usual rider off the back situation is someone who’s dropped a chain or something like that and is 30 seconds or less back, so you see them easily. In this case, a marshall could have held people for 2 minutes or more. If one of us had remembered the marshall, this hopefully would have prompted us to stop the group, search further back, etc. Instead, we looked 30 seconds down the road, saw the rest of the group rapidly pulling away, and thought, “OK, maybe we didn’t lose people…we’d better get moving or we’ll be the ones dropped.”
5) We didn’t then wait at the bottom of Observatory Hill, deciding instead to wait at the top. We probably would have reconnected the group if we’d waited at the bottom. Instead, we may well have pissed them off to the point that they decided to skip Observatory, which is no good for anyone. We did wait awhile at the top, and then held out hope for reuniting at Fol Epi, but neither of those things happened.
So next time, keep aware of what’s going on behind you, shout warnings forward, send a messenger forward if people go off the back, and when in doubt, wait up.
Anyway, just my interpretation/thoughts. I could have it completely wrong, so feel free to chime in. Sorry to the folks left back today.
Martin
Re: No drop Sunday ride
The pace increase directly after the controlled crossing along Wallace Dr was in retrospect a big failure to keep the group together. Martin, myself and several others waited for the back group to materialize but I'm supprised no one in the lead group had the awareness to chill the group down and at least take stock to realize that almost half of the paticipating riders were missing. There could have been a mechanical, crash or serious incident but without stopping how would we know otherwise?
Kenji Jackson
Re: No drop Sunday ride
Also, the infamous Interurban world champ sprints could have ended with someone under a nice silver Audi. Perhaps we could just roll through the sprint area when there are cars backed up behind riders. Three wide made for a tight roadway as one missed gear or pedal unclip would be very ugly.
Kenji Jackson
Re: No drop Sunday ride
Nearly all the things you identify as going wrong could be avoided, or at least ameliorated, by breaking up the Sunday ride into sensibly numbered groups. I've never understood why people insist on staying together in a group of 30+ on Sundays, when that's rejected during the week.
Limiting group size not only fosters better communication, it ensures we're only marginally less safe than a slow-moving semi-trailer with no mirrors, driven by a hung-over trucker.
Limiting group size not only fosters better communication, it ensures we're only marginally less safe than a slow-moving semi-trailer with no mirrors, driven by a hung-over trucker.
Last edited by Rolf on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: No drop Sunday ride
Does seems silly considering we try to punish each on every other ride throughout the week. Sundays ride is still supposed to be a little more chill even with a few places to push the pace. Today we had maintained the group size quite efficiently and without significant gaps forming. I feel that if we had stopped/waited at Wallace and regrouped it would have been great to enjoy a coffee in the sun with the entire crew.
Kenji Jackson
Re: No drop Sunday ride
It was a flat, common occurrance around that area. I called out "technical," but clearly not loud enough. I turned around to help and in the end five of us stayed behind. By the time we got moving again we never caught up, even for coffee. No hard feelings, we made our way back with our small group with no problems.
It was a bit of a funny Sunday ride, it all started with the Oak Bay police yelling at us. Then when the question was asked if we should break into two groups we remained as one. I myself was surpassed as to how big the group got after leaving Starbuck's today, we picked up a lot of riders along the way which fooled me as to the group size. I do think the size of the group did challenge us a bit.
All is well that ends well. We all made it home safe.
Tim G.
It was a bit of a funny Sunday ride, it all started with the Oak Bay police yelling at us. Then when the question was asked if we should break into two groups we remained as one. I myself was surpassed as to how big the group got after leaving Starbuck's today, we picked up a lot of riders along the way which fooled me as to the group size. I do think the size of the group did challenge us a bit.
All is well that ends well. We all made it home safe.
Tim G.
Re: No drop Sunday ride
Simple and Easy...If more than 25 people are out on Sundays we split at the start...
Why do we have 4 or 5 groups on Tues and Friday???
I like riding and "racing" with 40 teammates"( and call it what you want ,but Cordova Bay Rd and Interurban sure fell like the dozen or so races I have done.)
..... I like riding with the club, staying safe and not pissing off drivers, even more so with 10 to 20 people. cheers pc
Why do we have 4 or 5 groups on Tues and Friday???
I like riding and "racing" with 40 teammates"( and call it what you want ,but Cordova Bay Rd and Interurban sure fell like the dozen or so races I have done.)
..... I like riding with the club, staying safe and not pissing off drivers, even more so with 10 to 20 people. cheers pc
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Re: No drop Sunday ride
+1 to Rolf's observations about a group split. I found myself in the lead group after the involuntary split on Wallace Drive and wondered aloud whether we were at a designated sprint point as we were hitting 45k+ at various times. Very nice team time trial, but good luck to anyone trying to catch us!
From the beginning of the ride on this gorgeous morning it was evident that a number of riders wanted to pick up the pace. Efforts by Barton to restore order to the peloton were greeted with (good-humoured, I want to think) jibes about being dictatorial. One person's pleasure is another person's pain, so I think that when the size of the group permits we should have a serious pre-departure chat about expectations for the ride, and consider multiple groups. And please put numbers to those expections (e.g., 30k max on the flats), or the subjectivity of "fast", "slow", "recovery ride pace", etc. will ensure that we remain an unruly gaggle.
From the beginning of the ride on this gorgeous morning it was evident that a number of riders wanted to pick up the pace. Efforts by Barton to restore order to the peloton were greeted with (good-humoured, I want to think) jibes about being dictatorial. One person's pleasure is another person's pain, so I think that when the size of the group permits we should have a serious pre-departure chat about expectations for the ride, and consider multiple groups. And please put numbers to those expections (e.g., 30k max on the flats), or the subjectivity of "fast", "slow", "recovery ride pace", etc. will ensure that we remain an unruly gaggle.
Mike Skinner
Re: No drop Sunday ride
I was part of the "Gang of Five" that got dropped before the lights at Wallace & West Saanich. I can't speak for the other four, but frankly I didn't really feel like chasing back on given the way the ride had gone up to that point. We skipped the Observatory and had coffee at Disco on Disco.
Should we have broken into two groups right at the start? Probably. We left with 24, which is border-line manageable as one group. Should we move to having two smaller groups on Sundays once we exceed, say 24? Yes - we always pick up folks along the way.
Did people listen to the Oak Bay cop's instrucutions to single up? Yeah, but seemingly grudgingly, and only after a while. We got off really lucky there.
Was Barton's slow-rolling pace line effective in avoiding the group ending up 4-wide across the road as riders dropped off the front? Yes, but in the future we will announce this at the start of the ride. Trying to implement it en route was difficult.
Am I fed up with having to remind people that the Sunday ride is a social ride, advertised as averaging 28-30km/h, and that we're supposed to keep together except for the designated sprint sections (of which, for the record, Wallace is not one)? Abso-frickin'-lutely! Ditto for trying to enforce a sensible group size on the B1/B2 groups on Tuesdays and Fridays.
J.
Should we have broken into two groups right at the start? Probably. We left with 24, which is border-line manageable as one group. Should we move to having two smaller groups on Sundays once we exceed, say 24? Yes - we always pick up folks along the way.
Did people listen to the Oak Bay cop's instrucutions to single up? Yeah, but seemingly grudgingly, and only after a while. We got off really lucky there.
Was Barton's slow-rolling pace line effective in avoiding the group ending up 4-wide across the road as riders dropped off the front? Yes, but in the future we will announce this at the start of the ride. Trying to implement it en route was difficult.
Am I fed up with having to remind people that the Sunday ride is a social ride, advertised as averaging 28-30km/h, and that we're supposed to keep together except for the designated sprint sections (of which, for the record, Wallace is not one)? Abso-frickin'-lutely! Ditto for trying to enforce a sensible group size on the B1/B2 groups on Tuesdays and Fridays.
J.
"Talk - Action = Zero" - Joe Keithley
Re: No drop Sunday ride
Ramsey, John T and I peeled off after Island View and filled our need for speed chasing one another around the peninsula. Similar options are open to anyone who feels stifled by the "social Sunday" pace. The Tripleshot ride is not a chain-gang. You're not fettered to the slowest common denominator for the duration of the ride. If the pace is pissing you off, go. Fly away. Be free!
Oh, and don't go off with Ramsey unless you're a top-grade masochist hankerin' for a merciless sh**-kickin'.
Oh, and don't go off with Ramsey unless you're a top-grade masochist hankerin' for a merciless sh**-kickin'.
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Re: No drop Sunday ride
If you are thinking of doing something different maybe let people know there is an option at the top Island View.
Thanks!!!
Barton.
Thanks!!!
Barton.
Barton Bourassa
Re: No drop Sunday ride
I look forward to riding with all of you next Sunday, regardless of the changes or outcome.
Just one other General, minor detail going through my head after reading most of the above.
I really like in sports, work and life in General looking at Solutions....which we are doing here. Its great to sometime continue this discussion in a group at coffee, one on one or via a PM ( if we feel this is necessary.) Problem is I don t know who FairweatherMike, Roadflasj, or Sailor is...so its hard to say in person:
"Thanks for that great post about last Sundays ride".... ' ROLF and John D'. is really clear... I love some of the nicknames, but unless you need to be anonymous....would 'regards Paul C. work???
regards ,
cheers, Paul C.
Just one other General, minor detail going through my head after reading most of the above.
I really like in sports, work and life in General looking at Solutions....which we are doing here. Its great to sometime continue this discussion in a group at coffee, one on one or via a PM ( if we feel this is necessary.) Problem is I don t know who FairweatherMike, Roadflasj, or Sailor is...so its hard to say in person:
"Thanks for that great post about last Sundays ride".... ' ROLF and John D'. is really clear... I love some of the nicknames, but unless you need to be anonymous....would 'regards Paul C. work???
regards ,
cheers, Paul C.
Re: No drop Sunday ride
You're quite right, Steve, in saying it's not a chain gang—nobody has been sentenced to stay with the group! The courteous thing to do is let others know you're leaving, and then drop off the back, or take a different turn. I have no idea if this is what happened on Sunday, but don't leave by blasting off the front and splintering the group on your way out!Lund wrote:The Tripleshot ride is not a chain-gang. ... If the pace is pissing you off, go. Fly away. Be free!
But on this point I completely disagree. So long as you remain on a no-drop, group ride, this is absolutely the case. If you're unwilling to ride at the pace of the slowest person in the group, you need to find another group.You're not fettered to the slowest common denominator for the duration of the ride.
If the goal of Sundays is to be a "big happy family" social ride that lets everyone (A's, B's, C's) ride with each other once a week, then everyone has to share that mindset. Even if it's intended to just be a big B ride (i.e. not slow, 28-32, but still no-drop) then the mindset of riding at the pace of the slowest rider must still prevail.
Of course, splitting the group into faster and slower Sunday riders would again alleviate some of the frustrations encountered by trying to cater to all abilities in one ride.
Re: No drop Sunday ride
And in completely disagreeing, you've even more emphatically agreed. If the no-drop, chit-chat pace of the Sunday ride is causing you consternation, angst, restlessness, sorrow, longing or any of a hundred other unpleasant emotions, you're under no obligation to hang in there. But if you do hang in there, do so knowing that no-drop chit-chat is what you've signed up for. Steady up and shut up.Rolf wrote:But on this point I completely disagree. So long as you remain on a no-drop, group ride, this is absolutely the case. If you're unwilling to ride at the pace of the slowest person in the group, you need to find another group.
Re: No drop Sunday ride
Very glad our disagreement turned out to be one of semantics, Steve.
Seeya on the bike! (If my S1 disc ever retreats back into my spine and I can ride a bike again. )
Seeya on the bike! (If my S1 disc ever retreats back into my spine and I can ride a bike again. )