"A" Ride Expectations

[Andrew]

We discussed having a discsuion on the forum about the A ride. The TSC A rides on Tuesdays and Fridays are two of the best rides in the city. Friday is my favorite ride. Today was no exception except possibly that Matt B was having too much fun making me suffer I wasn't there at the start but there was a plan to keep it together until King George but the plan fell apart for a number of reasons, likely as the skill and fitness levels were a bit mismatched (?). I loved learning how to ride with the Bs when I joined the club, but I really got a lot faster when I tried to ride with the A's, with the help of many of the A's helping me (PL, LF, KF, JE). It was a steep and painful learning curve but each ride I would hang on for as long as possible and only stayed on to the end after making it past Clover Point. I took many weeks. Everybody expects the A ride to be (almost) anything goes during race season, with attacks, counter attacks et cetera. The problem comes at this time of year when people are super strong, but the pace is slowing down and winter training is starting. There were differing opinions this morning about the A's running off the front when we were supposed to stay together. What do folks think about this morning and what should we plan to do? What should we do in race season? I think it unreasonable to attack at this time of year, it is a group ride. On the other hand, I don't think a pure A ride should ever be a no drop ride, at least after Oak Bay Beach or KGT. What are your thoughts?

[barton bourassa]

I was not in the A/B group this morning. There were way too many leaving the parking lot. However, I do have a few thoughts. What ever is announce at Pareto should be the plan. Trevor announced an A/B ride at Pareto with everyone staying together till KG. Then that is what the ride should be. Anyone joining in after Pareto should be informed and should comply. Lots of Bs went off with the group expecting to suffer but also expecting to stay as a group, typically 2 up thru to KG then try to hang on for dear life after that. Staying together should include Ash. If you happen to get the top long before the last rider, put your foot down and wait.

If the As want a drop ride, say so. However, the ethos, the central and most important theme of Tripleshot and what makes us so different from any other group around is: THE GROUP COMES FIRST, ALWAYS!!! Always!!! It is what has made us who we are. It should always be central in what we do. If you feel you are not getting the workout you think you should get, ride up a group. If that doesn't work, ride alone. Tripleshot is for group riding. Individual goals come way down the priority list.

Personally, I don't mind A group being a drop ride. No other ride should be however. If you call a ride an A/B ride with no drop to a certain point, let it happen.

Each and every ride is a group ride. Keep that in front of your minds at all times.

Barton.

[barton bourassa]

Also see my post from Oct 5, 2012, this section of the forum. Sounds pretty familiar to today!!

[trevor]

My 2 bits...
I agree Barton. I totally take the hit for calling out the A/B ride to KGT but that doesn't turn any of us in to police officers on the bike trying to hold people together. I have so much fun on the bike, fun going fast and going hard, fun socially riding with others, that enforcing other riders to steady up when they clearly don't want to isn't in me. It is only bike riding after all.
These are tough weeks as Andrew stated with some looking to slow down for the winter and some keen to stay steady through cross season. I have enjoyed joining the TS rides for the past few years. I hate the feeling that my riding doesn't jive with the TS founding fathers (whoever you are) or the TS "theme", but I hate being bullied more. The A ride, in my years having ridden with TS, has always been stay on or you're off. I spent seemingly countless mornings where I was quietly popped of Ash, Gordon Head, Caddie Bay, Oak Beach Hotel, KGT, Clover, and the Beacon laps. No one steadied up or put a foot down waiting for me. Nor would I have wanted them to. That should remain the same IMHO. Understandably today this was called out differently as I was anticipating the winter pace to have taken over. I was wrong. I think the A ride should continue to be the A ride with drops etc. If the As in attendance decide to join the Bs then the B rules take precedent. No question.
Again, at the end of day, we're all out there doing what we love, becoming healthier and happier people.
See you on Tuesday to hopefully smoothen out all this madness.

[JohnT]

The club does a very good job of meeting the expectations of a great diversity of cyclists.

JT

[MDAWSON]

In the 2 and a half years or so that I've been riding with Tripleshot I've noticed a trend. Every seasonal change, especially in the spring and fall, the forum explodes with posts about group ride expectations usually centering on the A, or B1 ride and the no-drop policy. One thing I've learned is that we like to argue on the forums about rides almost as much as we enjoy hammering down the waterfront.
I've said before how much I enjoy the mixed A/B rides. In fact, I think the silent majority enjoys the mixed format throughout winter, and I've heard many positive comments on these rides.
I agree with Trevor's post, and Barton's points are also true. There's a noticeable gap between the B1 and the A pace. I know this first hand, because I float back and forth across this gap. The pace difference is most noticeable in the hills, making the friday ride (with a few added hills) more susceptible to problems with drops. Take Ash for example, the As were riding Ash about 25 seconds faster 6 weeks ago than the last few weeks, where's it's been mixed. 25 seconds faster on a short hill like Ash, is a huge speed difference.
Anyway, my point is that whether you think of the mixed ride as a fast B ride, or slow A ride the majority of the riders are having a blast and it should continue that way.

[Stéphane Tran]

Is this still relevant? http://www.tripleshotcycling.com/rides/general-info/

[Rolf]

Hey Andrew, thanks for opening a discussion. I heard some serious frustration at coffee yesterday and communication is important. I agree with everything stated thus far, whether it's Barton's yelling, Trevor's enthusiasm and antipathy to bullying, John's platitude, or Mike's seasonal observation. And I was pleasantly surprised to see the ride descriptions at Stéphane's link still hold up.

Despite only rarely riding A, I've got a few comments (apologies for repeating some of what's already been said):

1. The foundational principle in group riding (after safety) has to be riding first for the group and second for yourself. "Is this good for the group?" always comes before "Is this good for me and my workout?" In most cases, the answers are the same, but where they're different (like during yesterday's A/B ride), the first question takes precedence.
2. The best way to keep the most riders happy is to communicate clear expectations of a ride's parameters before it starts, and then carry out those expectations. This means if the word at Pareto is "stick together until KGT" — you, um, stick together until KGT.
3. The exception would be where changing the nature of a ride is discussed among the whole group and a new consensus is reached (whether at a stoplight, during a mechanical, or regrouping at the top of a hill.)
4. if you join a ride late, it is your responsibility to determine the nature of the ride, especially before you ride away from anyone!
5. The term "A/B" sucks because it's ambiguous. A rides are drop; B rides are no drop. An A- is a slower A ride that still welcomes attacks. A B+ ride is a harder B ride that will still wait for its slowest riders (and leaves them with no doubts they're not keeping pace.)
6. Part of yesterday's enmity originates in an erosion in riders' respect for Tripleshot's culture. Take a moment to click Stéphane's link above and read the very first paragraph on the General Info page. Having coffee together after a ride has all kinds of socio-psychological benefits; it fosters communication and builds a community in which differences of opinion can be dealt with constructively and realistic expectations can be shaped. It also creates a vital social bond between riders, a feeling of shared responsibility for each other's wellbeing and happiness that translates into a safer, more satisfying ride experience. Our coffee turnout rate is around 20-30%—that sucks. Some riders have to get home to get kids to school or meet other obligations. But if you start any 6 a.m. ride from Pareto, and you are having coffee somewhere other than Shoal Point (or just hanging out with your buddies in the little triangle by the totem pole for 20 minutes), you are contributing to an environment where people swear at each other instead of reasonably discussing varying expectations and how best to meet them.

Crap, I'm starting to rant a bit. Some PhD candidate in group psychology would find Victoria fertile ground for work on cycling club schisms. But that's gotta be left for another day...

[mfarnham]

Hey all. I got dropped *twice* on the ride yesterday! Once at Cattle Point and once (after taking a shortcut to catch the group) on the approach to Clover Point. But I was happy to have held in as long as I did with a "hybrid" A/B ride. So no hard feelings here.

I'd agree that it's best to stick to whatever expectations are set at the start of a ride. It sucks to get dropped on Ash if you believe people are going to wait for you. And some of the people who got dropped yesterday might have actually dug down a bit and hung on if they knew the group wasn't going to wait at the top. If it's hard to stick to expectations with ad hoc groupings, we can always revert to the official A vs. B1 rides. Though, personally, I love having something in between. I have no problem with the hybrid A/B ride being a drop ride so long as that's clearly stated at the start.

Apologies for being a bailer on coffee this term. I teach 8:30 classes on T/W/F. I'll be back at coffee as soon as my chair can be convinced to give me a more civilized teaching schedule. In the meantime the forum will be my (poor) caffeine substitute. Ciao!

Martin

[dreeves]

There is no other club in town that offers as many options for riders than Tripleshot. As Rolf has outlined, some designations become blurred, A/B -B+/B, etc. Over the years we have tried innumerable designations to help the group function well and to guide individuals as they become fitter and or more serious about cycling. No one even attempts to do it better than us.

The ride last Friday probably should have stayed together for a much longer time. Historically, we have used KGT as the get to point for any ride beside an 'A' ride. KGT is a tough hill to get over if all of a sudden the ride amps it up at the bottom of the hill. An A/B ride should wait at the top of Ash, however, you should also expect to ride a little harder up this first hill.

Generally we have slowed rides down as it gets darker and wetter into the fall. In my opinion it is a great time to meld groups and also work on pushing yourself a little bit more to stay with an A/B ride. Perhaps a better spot to start the 'drop' would be the Oak Bay hotel? You are much more likely to be able to stay on for a while longer at that point and you then get some experience with the pace of an 'A' ride. Hang on for dear life until KGT and after a few tries, you may make it over with the group. Probably not, but eventually you will. Come Spring, you will be ready to try a full 'A' ride. I can't count how many times I have improved my fitness by moving from B to A by getting dropped a bunch of times before my legs finally let me stay with the faster group.

When our club began, there were no laps at Beacon Hill. We sprinted for glory right before the turn off for Shoal Point Moka. Plenty of time to get a coffee...or two. Our rides are now much longer, especially in the Spring and Summer when everyone is riding 4-7 laps of Beacon Hill.

If we want more people to show up for coffee, lets move it to somewhere closer-say Cook Street Moka. My experience has been that if more than 20-30 percent of riders shows up for a Tuesday or Friday morning coffee, we may all be served by sometime Tuesday afternoon. Smaller groups have formed because we still love coffee, however, the extra distance to and from James Bay at the end of a ride makes us late for life outside of cycling. We are still TSers drinking coffee together. We promise not to drink with IRC or Russ Hays riders.

Talking with your buddies in the little triangle is open to all, Rolf. Everyone welcome.

[Rolf]

Thanks, Dylan! I agree TSC should feel pretty chuffed to even have these problems of trying to figure out how many rouleurs fit on the head of a pin.

The Wednesday Farm Team has coffee at Cook St. Moka House and it certainly does the trick (albeit with a smaller group). But if Cook St. would encourage a greater coffee turnout, maybe we should try it out for a couple weeks?

Changing coffee locations may have sponsorship consequences and likely takes someone with more clout. Can the exec chime in?

[Lister Farrar]

Great posts all. I've often thought our clubs strength is the willingness to talk about this stuff as often as we need to to work out frictions.

Agree on riding to suit the group. But while that means the stronger half of the group avoiding attacking, (unless the group agrees this is ok), it also means something for the weaker half of the group. I hasten to add i don't see this as a greater issue than the strong half playing nice , it just tends not to get mentioned as much because the strong half are usually seen as causing the pain. But its not new; historically, we've ALWAYS had riders who cooked themselves pulling, and got dropped, and we waited.

There's lots that riders in the weaker half can do to help the group. Take short pulls or no pulls at all. I'm amazed at riders who seem to feel obligated to pull, then go straight off the back, and everyone has to wait. This can't be said strongly enough: there is no obligation to pull.

Avoid going to the front and slowing the group. If you can't tell how fast to go, people behind will gently remind you, "short pulls" if you're slowing the group. Please listen to them. Or get a speedometer.

If you can carry on a conversation on the front, you're not going hard enough for people in the draft to get exercise. Unless you're an A who has dropped down a group for the day and are doing locomotive service. But even then, c's like to do their turns too.

There's tons of things you can do as a weak half rider. This is one of the coolest things about road cycling. I'm often in this category with the a's. When doing a pull could crack you on the next climb, skip some turns. (Ensure riders in pace lines know you're sitting on by saying "get in" in frot of you, as riders drop back.) See if you can save up enough to hold the group on the hill. Move up approaching hills so you can slide back on the hill, but stay in contact. Take a short cut at the top of ash to get a breather and rejoin the group. You can do this at Hollywood too.

Make sure you let someone know if you're packing it in for the day. Its no shame to drop back a group. Its annoying if you drop off a no-drop group and they wait, only to be told you're cruising in. A simple "I'm done" to the closest rider when you're pulling the pin is all that's needed.

Some of my most satisfying rides are clinging to the back when the a's 30 years younger are cranking it. By careful positioning, digging really deep on hills, looking for chances to move up when its easier, so i can slide back when its hard but hold on, i can ride way over my head. Its much better than a bunch of people waiting and then taking ages to get rolling again.

If anyone wants help noticing these opportunities, ask for coaching.

Also for stronger riders looking for variety, its really fun helping a rider learn this. Figuring out how to read the group and pace, and to stay with them, is the essence of group riding; pass it on. A few pushes on the crest of hills can be all the exercise you want too.

And the look on their face when they get it, is priceless.

[Curran]

Coffee shop proximity to those final laps of Beacon hill certainly is a time constraint for me! Cook St. would be much more central and conducive for getting more folks out to coffee

[Rolf]

As usual, Lister's a fount of knowledge. I'd simply add that hanging out at the back and asking riders coming off the front to "get in" in front of you is much easier if you can yell their names into the wind. "BARTON: JUMP IN BEHIND AL!" is so much more helpful than just "GET IN".

But yelling name requires knowing names. Which, in turn, is greatly helped by having post-ride coffee!