I could have added this to Lister's post under Ride Planning, but I didn't want to bump Peter's announcement for a Sat ride.
Lister, I thought that was fun this morning. Lots of reason for this feeling. First, it forced many of us to keep riding after a hard effort. I think many (certainly me) anticipate the Beacon Hill sprints and, even if we don't end up hanging on, we attempt to use our power in a conservative way. These games let us know what it is like to keep riding (and not just to coffee) after a serious effort. Second, it also gets people to ride for others, and that doesn't just mean pulling others, which is the way it often goes. Often, some people pull, maybe too hard, and others call 'steady up' and from these interactions, we think we're riding as a group. But, today's approach reveals (or could reveal) that there's another way to ride as a group that gets the most out of each member without anyone feeling that they are too fast or too slow. At least that's how our third attack group felt (I hope). I confess, however, that we didn't really attack - what we did was more of a TTT after you guys let us go. Easier to organize that, though it wasn't exactly what Lister had in mind.
I'm keen to keep it up. We'll get better and better at it with practice.
JT
Fridays
Moderator: mfarnham
Re: Fridays
I agree, John, I enjoyed this morning even though I screwed things up a couple of times. Great to try and work as a team, good interval efforts and works communication skills.
Thanks Lister and others, for putting the time and effort in on this.
Steve
Thanks Lister and others, for putting the time and effort in on this.
Steve
Re: Fridays
Well, I hate to be the first downer but today didn't really do it for me for a few reasons.
First, I definitely felt like things were more chaotic than usual with 4 or 5 riders abreast at points. Not good. There were a few issues with cranking off of the front of the group. Not good.
Second, I head in to my riding with some clear goals in mind, build weeks, skills (and fitness) to improve upon, and today didn't play in to my cards at all with what I had to get done. I can see how it works for others, but for me it didn't meet my needs.
Third, the Tripleshot Friday A rides are known throughout Vic as being, well, a Tripleshot Friday A ride. On any given Tuesday or Friday we pick up 2 to 6 riders who get on with us and know what to expect. This was not possible today and something to consider going forward is that TS A rides attract some pretty strong riders that don't necessarily need the drills we worked on today.
On the other hand I can see how this morning offers up some great things for others. Perhaps keeping the A ride an A ride is the best bet.
Cheers.
Trevor
First, I definitely felt like things were more chaotic than usual with 4 or 5 riders abreast at points. Not good. There were a few issues with cranking off of the front of the group. Not good.
Second, I head in to my riding with some clear goals in mind, build weeks, skills (and fitness) to improve upon, and today didn't play in to my cards at all with what I had to get done. I can see how it works for others, but for me it didn't meet my needs.
Third, the Tripleshot Friday A rides are known throughout Vic as being, well, a Tripleshot Friday A ride. On any given Tuesday or Friday we pick up 2 to 6 riders who get on with us and know what to expect. This was not possible today and something to consider going forward is that TS A rides attract some pretty strong riders that don't necessarily need the drills we worked on today.
On the other hand I can see how this morning offers up some great things for others. Perhaps keeping the A ride an A ride is the best bet.
Cheers.
Trevor
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Lister Farrar
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Re: Fridays
Thanks for the comments. Sorry it didn't work for you Trevor, though I have to say your pulls certainly simulated for others how to survive in a break with a stronger guy. 
Can you suggest an attacking and chasing drill that might work? Or do you think that practicing that is not necessary or motivating?
Today was a little chaotic, for a number of reasons. That's to be expected as we learn the drills and refine them. But i think it also not a bad thing for those planning on racing this spring.
Because, first of all, racing is chaotic. Breaks, nor chases, don't roll away like TTT starts, and they always have moments of testing and negotiation as the break members decide how strong each other are, and whether they are committing. And someone always over commits their pulls and either gets dropped or has to sit on a bit. A major reason for doing this drill is so people can figure out how to do that.
The second thing is that our typical hammer-in-a-pace-line is great fitness and fun, but not really intense enough on its own to be ready for the repeated accelerations of racing. And intensity training is difficult; the most motivated can do intervals on their own, but group games help a lot, just as TS rides help us to get up early in bad weather. And you get little of the skill of budgeting effort and recovering when you're on your own. That's one of the reasons cyclist race a lot vs other endurance sports.
It was less than ideal to mix a's and b's, but we had a smaller turnout, i guess because of the rain. Joining up allowed most to get the feel. Re learning moments, I saw several riders take pulls, then go out the back. I think that's how you learn how to manage a pace over your head; you have to try it. (By the way, for those diesels who found it hard today, higher revs at higher intensities helps with matching the pace.)
Perhaps we could have made two groups, which each would have split into two 3-5 rider packs. Not quite the same, but still a good workout, and different than the group ride.
Last summer we tried the alternating attack groups, and I thought that was too much to start with. Teams couldn't find each other to jump. Most folks haven't had a short hard effort in a pace line yet this season (jumping and hammering when fresh, like the start of a race, is quite different than winding it up at the end of our rides), so the idea was do get used to the effort, then start adding complexity in later weeks.
Most of the comments I got today were positive, but that may be because i introduced the drill.
In fact, most of them said stuff like they liked learning how to manage the pace at higher intensities, figure out how hard to go, how to recover. Those not wanting it, please don't be afraid to say so. Also, A's speak up and let us know what you want if it's different than the b's. I'm sure c's will modify the games too.
Any thoughts on the plan for Tuesday? My suggestion is lead outs, much like last summer. Teams of 4-5, each designate a sprinter, and try to get them to the line ahead of the other sprinters. Workers get a good threshold workout, learn how hard to go while trying to keep a team together. Sprinter learn to wait for the moment, watch for opportunities. (They can jump on another team if they have to.) Just be safe and emphasize the leadout, not blocking or changing line quickly.
Can you suggest an attacking and chasing drill that might work? Or do you think that practicing that is not necessary or motivating?Today was a little chaotic, for a number of reasons. That's to be expected as we learn the drills and refine them. But i think it also not a bad thing for those planning on racing this spring.
Because, first of all, racing is chaotic. Breaks, nor chases, don't roll away like TTT starts, and they always have moments of testing and negotiation as the break members decide how strong each other are, and whether they are committing. And someone always over commits their pulls and either gets dropped or has to sit on a bit. A major reason for doing this drill is so people can figure out how to do that.
The second thing is that our typical hammer-in-a-pace-line is great fitness and fun, but not really intense enough on its own to be ready for the repeated accelerations of racing. And intensity training is difficult; the most motivated can do intervals on their own, but group games help a lot, just as TS rides help us to get up early in bad weather. And you get little of the skill of budgeting effort and recovering when you're on your own. That's one of the reasons cyclist race a lot vs other endurance sports.
It was less than ideal to mix a's and b's, but we had a smaller turnout, i guess because of the rain. Joining up allowed most to get the feel. Re learning moments, I saw several riders take pulls, then go out the back. I think that's how you learn how to manage a pace over your head; you have to try it. (By the way, for those diesels who found it hard today, higher revs at higher intensities helps with matching the pace.)
Perhaps we could have made two groups, which each would have split into two 3-5 rider packs. Not quite the same, but still a good workout, and different than the group ride.
Last summer we tried the alternating attack groups, and I thought that was too much to start with. Teams couldn't find each other to jump. Most folks haven't had a short hard effort in a pace line yet this season (jumping and hammering when fresh, like the start of a race, is quite different than winding it up at the end of our rides), so the idea was do get used to the effort, then start adding complexity in later weeks.
Most of the comments I got today were positive, but that may be because i introduced the drill.
In fact, most of them said stuff like they liked learning how to manage the pace at higher intensities, figure out how hard to go, how to recover. Those not wanting it, please don't be afraid to say so. Also, A's speak up and let us know what you want if it's different than the b's. I'm sure c's will modify the games too. Any thoughts on the plan for Tuesday? My suggestion is lead outs, much like last summer. Teams of 4-5, each designate a sprinter, and try to get them to the line ahead of the other sprinters. Workers get a good threshold workout, learn how hard to go while trying to keep a team together. Sprinter learn to wait for the moment, watch for opportunities. (They can jump on another team if they have to.) Just be safe and emphasize the leadout, not blocking or changing line quickly.
Lister
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
Re: Fridays
I'm 100% with Trev on this one. I wasnt a huge fan of this am.
I think the Friday A ride has attacks and chases already. I felt this morning the range of riders was too great for the group. I think if we had the regular turnout it wouldnt have been an issue - so dont get me wrong I think the drills are excellent. But it should be within the groups of A riders then B riders then C riders. I feel it was a bit too hard for the B's to ride A PLUS attack/chase. It seems to me that for B riders the best plan is to choose:
- ride A (being conservative where your goal os to make it to Beacon Hill); or
- Ride B and practice the drills/skills that you will need to ride A.
It is a bit too much in my opnion to ask B's to do both at once.
The above really only applies to Friday. On Tuesdays I am all over setting up "Teams" in A. I further suggest that we do 5 laps with sprints on laps 1, 3 & 5 (but cut through Uplands onthe way up to the Box) from now on. Then do only 3-4 laps of BH. I think that gets us an extra sprnt (i.e. another try!) and is better overall.
Peter
I think the Friday A ride has attacks and chases already. I felt this morning the range of riders was too great for the group. I think if we had the regular turnout it wouldnt have been an issue - so dont get me wrong I think the drills are excellent. But it should be within the groups of A riders then B riders then C riders. I feel it was a bit too hard for the B's to ride A PLUS attack/chase. It seems to me that for B riders the best plan is to choose:
- ride A (being conservative where your goal os to make it to Beacon Hill); or
- Ride B and practice the drills/skills that you will need to ride A.
It is a bit too much in my opnion to ask B's to do both at once.
The above really only applies to Friday. On Tuesdays I am all over setting up "Teams" in A. I further suggest that we do 5 laps with sprints on laps 1, 3 & 5 (but cut through Uplands onthe way up to the Box) from now on. Then do only 3-4 laps of BH. I think that gets us an extra sprnt (i.e. another try!) and is better overall.
Peter
Re: Fridays
I agree with Trevor and, from what I heard from others, we're not the only regular A riders that felt that way. I think the A ride should stay the A ride for the following reasons:
1. Lots, possible even most, of the guys in the A ride have a pretty significant level of race experience. As a newbie I find watching them and riding with them as well as the comments they make to me far more helpful than a predictable and controlled drill
2. Everyone in the A group is very closely matched in terms of strength and everyone pushes so the drills we did today are simulating things that the A group does anyways. However, when the A group goes as the A group the attacks are real, the chases are real and the whole thing is much smoother.
3. Several of the A riders have some pretty serious training goals and limited time to achieve those in. We would love to help out weaker riders but not during our training time. Constantly stopping to regroup cuts into the workout time.
4. The A and B rides just don't jive. The spread of ability and fitness is way to big. The stronger riders aren't being challenged because the "attack" speed was slower than our regular rolling speed and the weaker riders appeared to be in way over their heads.
Hopefully I don't sound like too much of a jerk. It's a good idea I just don't think it works in the context of the regular A rides.
1. Lots, possible even most, of the guys in the A ride have a pretty significant level of race experience. As a newbie I find watching them and riding with them as well as the comments they make to me far more helpful than a predictable and controlled drill
2. Everyone in the A group is very closely matched in terms of strength and everyone pushes so the drills we did today are simulating things that the A group does anyways. However, when the A group goes as the A group the attacks are real, the chases are real and the whole thing is much smoother.
3. Several of the A riders have some pretty serious training goals and limited time to achieve those in. We would love to help out weaker riders but not during our training time. Constantly stopping to regroup cuts into the workout time.
4. The A and B rides just don't jive. The spread of ability and fitness is way to big. The stronger riders aren't being challenged because the "attack" speed was slower than our regular rolling speed and the weaker riders appeared to be in way over their heads.
Hopefully I don't sound like too much of a jerk. It's a good idea I just don't think it works in the context of the regular A rides.
Re: Fridays
I had a positive experience this morning, and can see the benefit in doing this drill and others in preparation for the race season that's round the corner. But I also agree with Peter, Trevor, and Anika who layed out the frustrations the A riders were feeling nicely.
This drill would be much more effective when the groups are properly separated into narrower ability levels, like they normally are, even if that means smaller groups.
The A's were reined in the whole ride, which means the "attacking" and "chasing" wasn't happening at all for them. When those guys attack, or chase hard I get shattered off the back, and sent crawling back to the B's! And like Anika said, that happens naturally in the A ride, no need to have the artificially planned sections.
In general though, once we're separated again, and with some of the chaos smoothed out, I think this will be a really fun drill to continue.
This drill would be much more effective when the groups are properly separated into narrower ability levels, like they normally are, even if that means smaller groups.
The A's were reined in the whole ride, which means the "attacking" and "chasing" wasn't happening at all for them. When those guys attack, or chase hard I get shattered off the back, and sent crawling back to the B's! And like Anika said, that happens naturally in the A ride, no need to have the artificially planned sections.
In general though, once we're separated again, and with some of the chaos smoothed out, I think this will be a really fun drill to continue.
Re: Fridays
Now I know why I saw strange groupings on the road during my intervals this AM. I dearly love Friday TSC morning rides. I often found them harder than racing B races, even when riding with the same people. I now try use the Friday's TSC as race simulation to try stuff. Sit in, conserve, sprint, cover attacks,etc. Last year I was trying 1\2 lap attacks. Getting comfortable with race tactics and having a feeling for what is going on is a huge part of racing that I got wrong alot! Fitness is great but tactics trump fitness if you get played without knowing it. A lack of confidence in yourself during a race will kill any chance of a good finish even if you have the motor and the finess. The Friday ride has been the best place to learn this stuff for me. That said the drills would make the learning likely quicker since its not an experiment each ride its a planned experience and knowledge transfer IE good coaching. Good coaching on a significant sized group at 6:30 in the rain with various levels of fitness, desire and experience is a huge ask of anyone.
I didn't ride my ProCity team ride since even one other person a team mate could mess with my plan. I am easily distracted
my 2 cents..... Looking forward to the next Friday challenge.
Kevin.
I didn't ride my ProCity team ride since even one other person a team mate could mess with my plan. I am easily distracted
my 2 cents..... Looking forward to the next Friday challenge.
Kevin.
Re: Fridays
Hey Guys
I agree that today's ride was a little disorganized with the A's and B's mixed. In my opinion, there should always be 2 different rides even if there is a small turnout. In a case of a small turnout, like today, I would modify the A ride to practice smooth echelons. Executing a smooth echelon is the point of this mornings interval and is central to both a successful break and bringing back a break in the quickest and most effective way. Its the hardest tactic to master but I think the A group is ready for it, it would make for a consistent ride rather than choppy intervals and it would pay off in races.Then leading up to Beacon Hill the real attacking and chasing happens.
I agree that today's ride was a little disorganized with the A's and B's mixed. In my opinion, there should always be 2 different rides even if there is a small turnout. In a case of a small turnout, like today, I would modify the A ride to practice smooth echelons. Executing a smooth echelon is the point of this mornings interval and is central to both a successful break and bringing back a break in the quickest and most effective way. Its the hardest tactic to master but I think the A group is ready for it, it would make for a consistent ride rather than choppy intervals and it would pay off in races.Then leading up to Beacon Hill the real attacking and chasing happens.
Re: Fridays
Lister
From my own B perspective (and Sarndinia) I thought this was a great ride--with the exception that we need a definite A/B split. I think the A's can figure out what is best for them and keep doing it.
I think that you said that the ride should put you "on the edge" or similar--it did that for me. I think that if you are a B rider and looking for a push, this is it.
It was the most fun that I have had riding for a long time. Looking forward to next Friday!
I also recommend this for all my fellow Sardines!
Thanks, Ritchie
From my own B perspective (and Sarndinia) I thought this was a great ride--with the exception that we need a definite A/B split. I think the A's can figure out what is best for them and keep doing it.
I think that you said that the ride should put you "on the edge" or similar--it did that for me. I think that if you are a B rider and looking for a push, this is it.
It was the most fun that I have had riding for a long time. Looking forward to next Friday!
I also recommend this for all my fellow Sardines!
Thanks, Ritchie