All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Moderator: mfarnham
All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Here it is, in it's staggering entirety, the 202 page document from USADA outlining the evidence against Armstrong, his doctors, coaches, and teammates. Add details of witness intimidation for good measure...
Sit down with an IV drip of your centrifuged blood and read it and weep!
http://www.businessinsider.com/usada-ev ... ng-2012-10
Sit down with an IV drip of your centrifuged blood and read it and weep!
http://www.businessinsider.com/usada-ev ... ng-2012-10
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Close that gap, Ramsey , the full, unabridged version of the report (1000+ pages) including current rider affidavits is here.
USADA had originally not planned to release the full file until copies had been delivered to the UCI, WADA and the World Triathlon Corp. But RaceRadio leaked the file on Scribd, so they went ahead and gave it all up.
The report isn't the real story anymore. The question now is what happens (or doesn't happen) at the UCI as a result.
USADA had originally not planned to release the full file until copies had been delivered to the UCI, WADA and the World Triathlon Corp. But RaceRadio leaked the file on Scribd, so they went ahead and gave it all up.
The report isn't the real story anymore. The question now is what happens (or doesn't happen) at the UCI as a result.
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Nucular bomb better go off.Rolf wrote:The question now is what happens (or doesn't happen) at the UCI as a result.
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
This guy's smothering the bombs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FrJTmB2QJg
Phil Liggett as Armstrong apologist.
Omerta in action.
After denying Floys Landis' doping allegations, Canadian Michael Barry comes clean:
http://michaelbarry.ca/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FrJTmB2QJg
Phil Liggett as Armstrong apologist.
Omerta in action.
After denying Floys Landis' doping allegations, Canadian Michael Barry comes clean:
http://michaelbarry.ca/
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Had a look at the rider sanction documents.
Leipheimer seems to be hit the hardest, being stripped of his results from June 99 to July 06 and July 07 where he made the podium at the Tour.
Hincapie appears to fared much better although I am not sure why. He admitted to doping between 1996 and 2006 inclusive, yet was only stripped of results from May 04 - July 06.
Don't recall seeing anything in the summary to support the lighter treatment. I would have thought they would have stripped him of everything prior to 2006.
Leipheimer seems to be hit the hardest, being stripped of his results from June 99 to July 06 and July 07 where he made the podium at the Tour.
Hincapie appears to fared much better although I am not sure why. He admitted to doping between 1996 and 2006 inclusive, yet was only stripped of results from May 04 - July 06.
Don't recall seeing anything in the summary to support the lighter treatment. I would have thought they would have stripped him of everything prior to 2006.
#24
- Stéphane Tran
- Posts: 620
- Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 9:24 pm
Who WASN'T doping?
A graphic from the NY Times showing all the dirty players in the TdF top 10 from 1999 to 2011. Just sad.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012 ... ef=cycling
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012 ... ef=cycling
- Lister Farrar
- Posts: 3093
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:19 pm
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... laims.html
How does he do that? Did his eyelid even twitch? Just for a second?
How does he do that? Did his eyelid even twitch? Just for a second?
Lister
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
-
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:56 am
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
"How does he do that? Did his eyelid even twitch? Just for a second?"
See "Test for Psycopathy":
http://www.arkancide.com/psychopathy.htm
See "Test for Psycopathy":
http://www.arkancide.com/psychopathy.htm
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
A good New York Times piece on Lance Armstrong, and an interview with his former masseuse:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/13/sport ... ref=sports
But this one I like better as it asks the question: "Why were (or are) the sports reporters so sucked in by the Lance story?"
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/david-wal ... was-doping
David Walsh called the sycophantic sportswriters, "Fans with Typewriters."
There's a huge parallel to my work, looking how pharmaceuticals get reported, with way too much hype and con games going on and many health reporters either afraid to ask the hard questions of medical academics or too cowardly to admit they're over their heads. Either way the media-consuming public is not well served by journalists who see their job as putting out the stories the companies want coverage on, and ignoring the uncomfortable and inconvenient truths.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/13/sport ... ref=sports
But this one I like better as it asks the question: "Why were (or are) the sports reporters so sucked in by the Lance story?"
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/david-wal ... was-doping
David Walsh called the sycophantic sportswriters, "Fans with Typewriters."
There's a huge parallel to my work, looking how pharmaceuticals get reported, with way too much hype and con games going on and many health reporters either afraid to ask the hard questions of medical academics or too cowardly to admit they're over their heads. Either way the media-consuming public is not well served by journalists who see their job as putting out the stories the companies want coverage on, and ignoring the uncomfortable and inconvenient truths.
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Good counterpoint to all the laudatory, sympathetic comment in North American cycling media re: Garmin's bad boys coming (ironically?) from Dan Martin's uncle in the Irish Independent.
** Interesting note: Nicolas Roche will be fingerbanging with Bert on the Bjarne bus next season. I sure hope he gives his team leader the same earful.If you look at all the riders recently who have been caught and admitted doping, some people are saying it's great that these riders are helping the sport. But saying, 'I'm sorry, I was doping from this year to that year but I'm not going to do it again and I'm cleaner than clean... I'm helping anti-doping because I talk to kids about it,' or whatever, that's a load of bull. That's not helping anti-doping.
Helping anti-doping is saying. 'Okay I doped. I got it from this doctor. These are the riders that I met in the waiting room. This is how it's done. These are the new products that are in the peloton that are not yet detectable. These are the products that we use to mask the ones that are detectable. This product does this, this product does that. This is how we beat the test.' That's helping anti-doping.
- Stéphane Tran
- Posts: 620
- Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 9:24 pm
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
I believe this article was written by Nicholas Roche, an active pro and Dan Martin's cousin. Ironically, Nicholas Roche's father Stephen (Tour/Giro/WC Triple Crown in '87) has been accused of doping: http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0109/sport.htmlRolf wrote:Good counterpoint to all the laudatory, sympathetic comment in North American cycling media re: Garmin's bad boys coming (ironically?) from Dan Martin's uncle in the Irish Independent.
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Good catch, Stéphane. I had my Roches confused. Plenty of pros in that family. Nico's Dad may have doped, but he doesn't sound like one himself. Or maybe we shouldn't confuse the message with the messenger. I dunno.
But I just so rarely hear that tone of exasperation from purportedly clean riders after yet another doping story breaks, which reinforces the impression that everyone is doing it, or helping to cover it up. You'd think that if you were a clean rider and you knew (or now know) that you were getting hammered by dopers for years, you'd be a little pissed off and show it. So far, this is the only name in the peloton I've heard hitting that note.
But I just so rarely hear that tone of exasperation from purportedly clean riders after yet another doping story breaks, which reinforces the impression that everyone is doing it, or helping to cover it up. You'd think that if you were a clean rider and you knew (or now know) that you were getting hammered by dopers for years, you'd be a little pissed off and show it. So far, this is the only name in the peloton I've heard hitting that note.
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Another interesting perspective from someone targeted by the LA machine for years...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bet ... wilderness
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/bet ... wilderness
#38
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Similar to the link Geoff posted, but what happened to his former mechanic
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... l?page=all
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... l?page=all
Current Winter Gloating point amount - 16730 (and counting)
- Stéphane Tran
- Posts: 620
- Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 9:24 pm
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
I find the incident with Filippo Simeoni particulary galling. It's not just Lance's tactics of intimidation that are reprehensible, but also the way Simeoni was treated by many other riders.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/ ... 04320.html
---
''Filippo Simeoni spoke out and from what I can gather was throwing accusations around, saying things like you can't win anything on the big Tours if you're not taking stuff (drugs), so I think a lot of guys have just taken offence.
''It was stupid for Simeoni to do that, especially if he's still in the peloton and riding the big races..
---
I guess that about sums up the culture of omerta in the peloton at the time.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/ ... 04320.html
---
''Filippo Simeoni spoke out and from what I can gather was throwing accusations around, saying things like you can't win anything on the big Tours if you're not taking stuff (drugs), so I think a lot of guys have just taken offence.
''It was stupid for Simeoni to do that, especially if he's still in the peloton and riding the big races..
---
I guess that about sums up the culture of omerta in the peloton at the time.
Last edited by Stéphane Tran on Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Sadly, I don't think change is coming soon. The general theme of the riders continues to be the need to look to the future, but ignore the past, as evidenced by Andy Schlecks comments here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/andy-sc ... the-future
Specifically
I don't think we're going to see a real change until the riders, as a collective, start treating the dopers the same as guys like Simeoni and Bassons were were treated in the past.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/andy-sc ... the-future
Specifically
followed soon after byAndy Schleck wrote:People have to trust us
It's the same story the public has heard for years.Andy Schleck wrote:Everybody knows, even the experts, that it's not a doping product, that Fränk did nothing wrong.
I don't think we're going to see a real change until the riders, as a collective, start treating the dopers the same as guys like Simeoni and Bassons were were treated in the past.
#24
- Lister Farrar
- Posts: 3093
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:19 pm
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
I'm starting to think change might be coming, given the quote below from Dick Pound today:
"However perhaps more damaging was an account of former WADA president Richard Pound about an exchange he said he had in the past with the UCI’s previous president, Hein Verbruggen.
“I said ‘Hein, you guys have a huge problem in your sport.’ He said ‘what do you mean?’ I said ‘the doping.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘that is really the fault of the spectators.’
“I said, ‘I beg your pardon...it is the spectators’ fault?’ He said, ‘yes…if they were happy with the Tour de France at 25 k [km/h], it would be fine. But if they want it at 41, 42, the riders have to prepare.’”
Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13065 ... z29R2Cid1i
To say something like that, he must know the IOC is sharpening its knives for VerDRUGgen.
That and the story here about a wave of confessions pending: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/ ... nks_261546
Wouldn't it be cool if the riders made their own truth and reconciliation happen and washed the UCI leadership away in a flood of incriminating evidence of negligence? Dayam.
"However perhaps more damaging was an account of former WADA president Richard Pound about an exchange he said he had in the past with the UCI’s previous president, Hein Verbruggen.
“I said ‘Hein, you guys have a huge problem in your sport.’ He said ‘what do you mean?’ I said ‘the doping.’ ‘Well,’ he said, ‘that is really the fault of the spectators.’
“I said, ‘I beg your pardon...it is the spectators’ fault?’ He said, ‘yes…if they were happy with the Tour de France at 25 k [km/h], it would be fine. But if they want it at 41, 42, the riders have to prepare.’”
Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13065 ... z29R2Cid1i
To say something like that, he must know the IOC is sharpening its knives for VerDRUGgen.
That and the story here about a wave of confessions pending: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/ ... nks_261546
Wouldn't it be cool if the riders made their own truth and reconciliation happen and washed the UCI leadership away in a flood of incriminating evidence of negligence? Dayam.
Lister
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
In terms of riders speaking up, I still haven't heard any denunciation from Ryder. He trots out the same lines as Andy Schleck, posted by Al above. Of course, some of his closest team-mates and friends are in the spotlight for past infractions and team solidarity is one of Garmin's greatest strengths. And I'm limited to what I read in the cycling press. But whoever is in charge of his public/media relations should be getting a statement from him out there strongly denouncing doping and addressing his early years with US Postal, Discovery Channel and Phonak - all teams linked with the pre-2007 doping that appears from USADA's reasoned decision to have been endemic at the time.
After reading through the USADA affidavits, it's very hard to imagine Bruyneel and Armstrong putting up with anyone for long unless they got on the "loading" train. These were not men or teams that tolerated nonconformists.
Michael Barry's confession (sworn just seven days ago on Oct. 8, 2012) covers infractions from 1998 to 2006. He says he used EPO and testosterone off and on from 2003 to 2006 and human growth hormone in 2004. Specifically, he said the following with regard to 2004 during his time on the U.S. Postal team: From what I can gather from online sources, Ryder made the jump from pro mountain biking to full-time road cycling in 2004, after the Athens games. But for most of 2004 he was doing both. His first team was U.S. Postal and then Discovery Channel from 2004 to 2005. According to Cyclingnews, U.S. Postal had 25 members in 2004. I fully recognize it may be unfair to connect those dots and say Michael was referring to Ryder in his statement above, but without more information, it's tempting. Read an interview with Ryder published January 18, 2004 by Canadian Cyclist Magazine about his beginnings with US Postal and continuing to be an MTB pro during 2004 while starting his road career. It's kind of interesting to read his further reports about his first pro race in Belgium (March 29, 2004), and then one published April 19, 2004 about riding Amstel Gold with Michael Barry in support of Floyd Landis. Here's one of the first shots of him in his US Postie costume, published February 8, 2004:
Obviously, none of this info is suspicious in its own right. But with the culture of US Postal / Discovery now revealed, it certainly raises the question of whether or not he participated in the "recovery vitamin" program or was aware of it going on around him and elected to resist and stay silent. Only 25 riders on the entire team; it's hard to believe it wasn't one of these two scenarios.
With reference to the Barry affidavit, I think Roland Green was riding off and on for US Postal as well around then, also on the side from MTB. For example, it looks like he rode alongside Mike Barry at the 2003 Worlds in Hamilton. And I think Roland's been busted for doping in the past. Does anyone with a pre-2009 interest in pro cycling know more? Lister?
Regardless, I'm sort of surprised to have seen zero recent Canadian media on Ryder and doping. Even just to get a simple quote out there saying "Never. Not then, not now." Surely some sports editors must be raising their eyebrows? This year's Giro forced them to give pro cycling some coverage in the sports section. And now USADA and Lance have hit the front page a bunch of times over the past two months.
Whether or not Ryder himself doped at the time, now is the best possible time to clear the air. The costs of failing to do so will only rise as his successes and the goodwill felt towards him continue to build. Whatever good works he does off the road (Wheelmen, Ryders [sic] Cycling Society etc.) will fall apart that much swifter and farther, the later any confession comes. And finally, the longer he waits, the longer we have to watch with mixed feelings as he shows us just how kickass and heroic on a bike he can be.
Ryder's huge, long attack on Saturday almost won him the Tour of Beijing GC. Start watching at 10:00 to enjoy his bridge up to and then gradual destruction of the break at 17:15, 21:50, 23:30, 24:12, and 26:00. It then gets great from about 34:00 as Ryder and eventual winner Steve Cummings hold off the peloton for the last 5K, despite the rampaging horde lingering about 30 seconds back. The finish is at 43:50. Ryder's powerful performance was a classic example of how he can often have the single biggest impact out of the entire peloton on a day's racing, despite having relatively little to show for it in the results. He somehow didn't even win the Most Aggressive Rider gong on Saturday, which had me gnashing my teeth.
Obviously, I'm a fan. But I'd like to be a fan without lingering questions. I believe Ryder's amazing 2012 was 100% clean. I have no reason to think otherwise. But if he has any skeletons, I think he has a duty to come clean and be a part of eliminating the doping culture of pro cycling and extinguishing the pervasive omertà that perpetuates it. (I also think fans have an obligation to ask questions where warranted, otherwise we're complicit in the omertà and really can't complain when our heroes crash down to earth.) Even if Ryder's past is as squeaky-clean as I hope, I still think he has an obligation to be unequivocal and outspoken about doping every time he's asked about it and to play an active role in getting that message out, especially to younger riders and future stars like Adam DeVos, Dylan Cunningham and Lister's super-impressive juniors.
As a start, Wheelmen Ride Bicycles and the Ryders Cycling Society of Canada [sic] should have anti-doping as a prominent part of their stated mission and values. They may not think doping is their concern because Ryder's recent success has been built on nothing but hard work and exceptional talent, but I think everyone sharing in or building on success in pro cycling has an obligation to actively address the issue.
Just to be perfectly clear, I have no good reason to suspect Ryder other than the facts set out above. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt because he seems like a good guy who maybe doesn't talk too much, and I respect his awesome abilities and dedication on the bike. But I really think he needs to speak up about the past and get specific, even if just to stuff a sock in the mouths of muck-raking ignoramuses like me.
After reading through the USADA affidavits, it's very hard to imagine Bruyneel and Armstrong putting up with anyone for long unless they got on the "loading" train. These were not men or teams that tolerated nonconformists.
Michael Barry's confession (sworn just seven days ago on Oct. 8, 2012) covers infractions from 1998 to 2006. He says he used EPO and testosterone off and on from 2003 to 2006 and human growth hormone in 2004. Specifically, he said the following with regard to 2004 during his time on the U.S. Postal team: From what I can gather from online sources, Ryder made the jump from pro mountain biking to full-time road cycling in 2004, after the Athens games. But for most of 2004 he was doing both. His first team was U.S. Postal and then Discovery Channel from 2004 to 2005. According to Cyclingnews, U.S. Postal had 25 members in 2004. I fully recognize it may be unfair to connect those dots and say Michael was referring to Ryder in his statement above, but without more information, it's tempting. Read an interview with Ryder published January 18, 2004 by Canadian Cyclist Magazine about his beginnings with US Postal and continuing to be an MTB pro during 2004 while starting his road career. It's kind of interesting to read his further reports about his first pro race in Belgium (March 29, 2004), and then one published April 19, 2004 about riding Amstel Gold with Michael Barry in support of Floyd Landis. Here's one of the first shots of him in his US Postie costume, published February 8, 2004:
Obviously, none of this info is suspicious in its own right. But with the culture of US Postal / Discovery now revealed, it certainly raises the question of whether or not he participated in the "recovery vitamin" program or was aware of it going on around him and elected to resist and stay silent. Only 25 riders on the entire team; it's hard to believe it wasn't one of these two scenarios.
With reference to the Barry affidavit, I think Roland Green was riding off and on for US Postal as well around then, also on the side from MTB. For example, it looks like he rode alongside Mike Barry at the 2003 Worlds in Hamilton. And I think Roland's been busted for doping in the past. Does anyone with a pre-2009 interest in pro cycling know more? Lister?
Regardless, I'm sort of surprised to have seen zero recent Canadian media on Ryder and doping. Even just to get a simple quote out there saying "Never. Not then, not now." Surely some sports editors must be raising their eyebrows? This year's Giro forced them to give pro cycling some coverage in the sports section. And now USADA and Lance have hit the front page a bunch of times over the past two months.
Whether or not Ryder himself doped at the time, now is the best possible time to clear the air. The costs of failing to do so will only rise as his successes and the goodwill felt towards him continue to build. Whatever good works he does off the road (Wheelmen, Ryders [sic] Cycling Society etc.) will fall apart that much swifter and farther, the later any confession comes. And finally, the longer he waits, the longer we have to watch with mixed feelings as he shows us just how kickass and heroic on a bike he can be.
Ryder's huge, long attack on Saturday almost won him the Tour of Beijing GC. Start watching at 10:00 to enjoy his bridge up to and then gradual destruction of the break at 17:15, 21:50, 23:30, 24:12, and 26:00. It then gets great from about 34:00 as Ryder and eventual winner Steve Cummings hold off the peloton for the last 5K, despite the rampaging horde lingering about 30 seconds back. The finish is at 43:50. Ryder's powerful performance was a classic example of how he can often have the single biggest impact out of the entire peloton on a day's racing, despite having relatively little to show for it in the results. He somehow didn't even win the Most Aggressive Rider gong on Saturday, which had me gnashing my teeth.
Obviously, I'm a fan. But I'd like to be a fan without lingering questions. I believe Ryder's amazing 2012 was 100% clean. I have no reason to think otherwise. But if he has any skeletons, I think he has a duty to come clean and be a part of eliminating the doping culture of pro cycling and extinguishing the pervasive omertà that perpetuates it. (I also think fans have an obligation to ask questions where warranted, otherwise we're complicit in the omertà and really can't complain when our heroes crash down to earth.) Even if Ryder's past is as squeaky-clean as I hope, I still think he has an obligation to be unequivocal and outspoken about doping every time he's asked about it and to play an active role in getting that message out, especially to younger riders and future stars like Adam DeVos, Dylan Cunningham and Lister's super-impressive juniors.
As a start, Wheelmen Ride Bicycles and the Ryders Cycling Society of Canada [sic] should have anti-doping as a prominent part of their stated mission and values. They may not think doping is their concern because Ryder's recent success has been built on nothing but hard work and exceptional talent, but I think everyone sharing in or building on success in pro cycling has an obligation to actively address the issue.
Just to be perfectly clear, I have no good reason to suspect Ryder other than the facts set out above. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt because he seems like a good guy who maybe doesn't talk too much, and I respect his awesome abilities and dedication on the bike. But I really think he needs to speak up about the past and get specific, even if just to stuff a sock in the mouths of muck-raking ignoramuses like me.
- Lister Farrar
- Posts: 3093
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:19 pm
Re: All the sordid details: USADA evidence against Armstrong
Good documentary from Australia on the USADA case, from yesterday.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 608613.htm
The quotes above are included there.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/ ... 608613.htm
The quotes above are included there.
Lister
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4