My Rant: This morning's not so group ride

[barton bourassa]

I don't often ride B but with so few of you Cs coming out what is a guy to do? In the Cs I and other experienced riders take charge. We are always looking around, making sure things are going well. Especially making sure no one is left behind under any circumstances. This does not seem to be happening with Bs, either the B2 ride I was on or from comments at coffee the B1 ride either.

We had a large group in B2, about 20 of us. Not too big that it was unweildy or dangerous but close to the maximum number of riders for sure. There were folks of different levels of experience, skill and fitness. This was evident at times when those with fitness but little apparent experience got on the front and pushed the pace. It is really important to make sure that when you do get on the front, you maintain the current pace, please do not surge. It might have just been me but it sure felt like there were enough surges on the front that it spread the group out quite well, if that was the intent!

Another issue from my perspective was the conscious or unconscious need to chase down a rider that takes off from the group. If you are riding with a B or C group, please, do not take off on your own. If you are on the front and you see someone take off, PLEASE, make a conscious effort to NOT try to catch the rider or riders. If you are riding A, well, just hammer it but in a B or C ride, remain calm! This appeared to happen this morning a few times and it really spread the group out.

With the B and C groups, when you reach the bottom of a hill like the one on Ash, hammer up as hard as you can and as you wish but either wait up at the top, foot down or circle back and ride down the hill again and pickup the last rider. Then when everyone is at the top, leave as a group. Please do not leave anyone stranded on the hills. This happened in B2 and from what I gather in B1 as well. Riders were left behind.

For those of you falling behind in a group ride, holler “STEADY” with feeling!! But if you holler this in an A ride, expect to be ignored as the others grin and race on ahead! In B & C, never ever be shy about yelling steady. If you don’t and someone looks around for you and sees you 100 or 200 m back, then the whole group will or rather should ease up a lot until you catch up. If you yell steady as soon as you see you are falling off the pace, the group holds up for a brief time, you are back on and away you all go. If you are falling off the pace, you have a responsibility to let folks know early. Don’t be shy! This is a group ride!!!

Did I mention this is a group ride? Well, this is a group ride. If you are looking for a personal work out, this may not be for you. If you are looking for a group ride and all of the many benefits this offers, this is for you. If you need more of a work out, pull a bit longer, not faster! Hammer the hills with all your might but hold up for the others or better still, ride back down and pick them up, helping the slower riders up some of those hills. If you are having trouble keeping up, pull shorter or even hang out at the back. And make sure you let folks know if you are falling off the pace.

We are TripleShot Cycling. We stand for inclusion, NO ONE LEFT BEHIND! We watch out for each other. We are focused on each other. In this way, we all improve, not just in our riding and but who we are. Every ride we practice taking care of each other, making sure everyone is welcome and everyone has a great ride. At the very least until the bottom of King George where you ride till your eyes bleed and you have left your mates far behind as you fly around Beacon Hill!

[FairweatherMike]

Well said, Barton - that was not a rant , it was a manifesto, with a little bit of MLK's "I have a Dream" speech thrown in for good measure. Communication on rides is definitely lacking. Given how little I have managed to make it for the 6 am moonlight workouts, I find I am still learning something on every ride. Today's B1 excursion - I try to hang with these strong riders because they are presuambly the more "experienced" ones - was a bit of a schmozzle (I think "F***ing Schmozzle" was Alan's description at coffee). At the very least there should be some consensus about whether there will be a rolling paceline on Blenkinsop; it began and then suddenly petered out, which resulted in instant two-abreast formation. OK, fine, but was that intentional? And then there were the surges and drops that Barton has described so well.

As fearless leader Peter pointed out at the beginning of the ride, we are at that awkward stage where summer fitness meets winter darkness, and the pedal-to-the-metal approach needs to be moderated somewhat. I would suggest for the Busy Bs that we have pre-designated ride leaders for B1, B2 and B3 if there is one (I would be surprised if this was a new idea). These leaders should organize and canvass the riders before heading out to make sure there is agreement on routes, pace, pacelines, etc. since a group discussion and vote in the dark at 35km/h is a bit tough to coordinate. Either that or we all get race radios and are followed by Jon Vaughters barking instructions from the team car.

My thoughts, for what they're worth... Cheers

[Paul C.]

Iwas in B 1 and Half of B2 and a mix of B1&2 and yes I got dropped twice...Do we not stop at the top of Ash as a group..what is the hurry? nd t thanks Dave S. and Richie for looping back for me.

...my observation,having done various types of races is , sometimes it is the riders who don't come out to VCL, WSW races, Masters or windsor crits who are not working as a team...Is that weird?
we have a spot for you at any of these races in 2013 ..its right in front of my wheel, and we will take turns..

.or jump right into B at caleb or latoria and do a race report about a possibly painful and humbling expierience...
ASK Me me how its been coming in last, getting lapped and DNF, getting DQ and getting beat by 3 ..16 year old 's.....I dont mind cause I love racing..

.We all have about 20 weeks til the next ones...Oh, and if you really want some skills training besides listening to members like BARTON,Mike F., PETER AND LISTER... ,can you spare 45 minutes for the next few Wed. nites??? CX!
see you on the next Group ride. I have learnt the hard way for the past 3 years from Pete, Barton, Lister, Hugh and others..Thanks guys!

and yes .most of it is pre ride communication and during the ride leadership like BARTON SAYS.

2 ,of my favorite words, if said strongly[ and a little louder please ladies], are ,"steady' and "Rolling!!"

Onward , pc,

[AlW]

You can call Bartons comments whatever you want. The point is they are right on the mark and something that I have been witness to on many occasions.

People showing up for our B & C rides expect no drop and a certain expected speed. Why? Because that is what our club is known for and what is stated on our web site. When someone new shows up and gets hammered into the ground and dropped, I think we look pretty bad.

I will echo some of Barton's points again. If the ride is no drop, the goal is to keep the group together. If you are on the front at the top of a hill, sit up and wait or circle back and pick up the slower riders. When you take a pull, do not accelerate. If you are feeling good, take a longer pull.

I think the primary cause of this is that there is a very wide range of ability in the B group. Some are moving up from C or coming back from a layoff. Others are feeling the benefits of a summer of riding but not quite strong enough to stick with the A's.

I don't think having a ride leader in the B's is necessary. The majority of B riders know the routine so there is no reason that the ride can't be managed in a collaborative fashion.

On a closing note. The difference in pace between the A's and B's has become significant. I know there are many strong B's who either can't hold the pace of the A's (or don't want to try) but still want to get a hard, sustained workout. Is it time to establish a B+ group? This group would be a drop ride like the A's, but at a lower pace. Anyone getting dropped could fall back to the regular no-drop B group. Would be interested in any opinions on this.

[Lister Farrar]

Well said all. Agree with most everything.

Coupla other thoughts. Most of the tips have focused on the stronger riders, which is appropriate. But there are a number of things riders in the weaker half of a group can do to contribute to a good experience for all.

If you're not one of the stronger riders:

Keep your turns short and up to speed. If the rest of the group are freewheeling and braking behind you for 2 km down past queen Alexandria, they are going to be antsy when they get to the front. We've only got 75 minutes for the ride to get some exercise. Don't block. Especially on fast "easy" parts. The wind might feel strong, but so is the draft.

Or don't pull at all. There is no obligation to pull. Sure everyone wants to have a go, but maybe save it for the second half.

If you can talk to your partner on the front, you're probably not going hard enough. Chat when in the line.

Try to stay on a wheel. If you've been leaving gaps or floating off to the side in the wind, then calling 'steady', it's annoying.

Are you really b1 ride calibre? I'm in favour of b1 becoming a drop ride just to remind folks that are picking the wrong group, but not to completely unleash the strongest.

I also think its time for group leaders. Somebody has to be given license to direct. Barton's group is the best managed of all. We should take a hint from that.

[leftcoaster]

I missed yesterday's ride (may not have missed much from the sounds of it ), but have tried to ride the first B or B1 (Lister) or B++ (Alan) as often as I can and have been enjoying it. We've been averaging from 34.5 - 35 km/hr from Pareto through to the end. Someone commented a few weeks ago how smooth the ride was with not requiring a foot down on Ash, Cadboro Bay or KGT and a relatively homogenous group. My only minor complaint was a couple of riders taking long pulls with a dozen riders behind coasting and riding the brakes.

The challenge with B's is, as mentioned above, the range is from slightly quicker than C's, to not quite as fast as the A's. I think officially designating a 'B+' ride is a great idea. And if it is a 'drop' ride, people can try it and if they can't hang on, they can be picked up by the next ride. I agree with Al.

However, with often well over 30 riders riding B, particularly over 20 in the second B group, it may be time to think about having a three B rides. For example, with too large of a group, there has been a lot of 'accordians' on the top of the hills - riders speeding up on the way down, while others are still climbing, causing frustration with those at the back.

Finally, these are group/no drop rides. If you feel you are riding 'down' and want to take extra-long pulls, or not wait for the rest of the group, ride with the A's . Triple Shot is the size it is because we try and make everyone feel welcome.

[leftcoaster]

My wife came up with an interesting idea for the B's. Instead of a 'fast B', a 'B1, B2, etc.', or 'B+, B and B- , why not segregate the B's by speed.

I still have the Garmin stats from two recent Friday rides, August 31....http://connect.garmin.com/activity/217112784 and September 28..........http://connect.garmin.com/activity/230513823.

The average speeds in both were 34.5 kms/hr, the average moving speeds were 34.7 and 34.8.

We could have a 34 - 35 B group, a 32 - 33 B group, and a 29 - 31 B group for example. With 30 - 40 riders in B, this would make each group a little more homogenous and potentially smoother. Make the first two 'drop' rides so someone can try and test themselves to see if they can move up a group and if they get dropped on Ash, no harm no foul - there's another ride behind. On the first B ride we've picked up a few riders who were shelled from the A ride. If there is less than 30 B's, just expand the parameters slightly and have 2 rides....33 - 35 and 29 - 32.

Again, this doesn't eliminate poor behavior, but it may allow for a better outlet for all the extra testosterone.

[Brian S]

The average speeds in both were 34.5 kms/hr, the average moving speeds were 34.7 and 34.8.

And if you roll the clock back a couple of years, those were essentially A ride stats. Says something about the changes and progress of riders within the club. I will very much keep that in mind when I roll back in to group riding in December

[katew]

Jeez. A girl goes away to train on her TT bike all by herself for a summer, and what happens?!

Is there a "D" ride being proposed?

[barton bourassa]

I still think there should continue to be an A ride, Drop Dead ride. Any other ride, no drop especially during the winter months. We can have a quicker B ride and a bit slower B ride and if enough of you Cs show up, a C ride (I know you are out there somewhere!). We should simple self seed. If you find you are falling off the pace, do exactly as Lister has recommended. Do very short pulls, 20 or 30 revolutions then got off and tuck in. Communicate early with your partner. Let them know you want to be on the front and pull but only briefly! If you are still having trouble hanging on, stay at the back! It is really easy to slide over behind the person falling back from the front and yelling "UP". There are other things to yell but in a group ride I think this is best. It is short, emphatic! And something we can all remember.

Everyone has a part to play. Slower riders, self seed. Faster riders, make sure you are not shredding the group! If you are quite strong, try riding with the As and hang on as long as you can without interferring. When you get dropped, circle back and jump on with the next B group, who will not drop you!!

Remember, for the Bs there is always Dallas Rd and Beacon Hill where you can show your stuff and really cut some throats!

Anyway, another toonie's worth from me!

[Josh.E]

The average speeds in both were 34.5 kms/hr, the average moving speeds were 34.7 and 34.8.

And if you roll the clock back a couple of years, those were essentially A ride stats. Says something about the changes and progress of riders within the club. I will very much keep that in mind when I roll back in to group riding in December

yeah, pretty cool.
I remember when everyone would be pretty damn impressed in the A ride if it was 35km/h or faster. Not that many years ago either.
Now A rides average closer to 39km/h, and sometimes as fast as 42km/h.
http://app.strava.com/activities/16298841

[Brently_G]

The challenge with B's is, as mentioned above, the range is from slightly quicker than C's, to not quite as fast as the A's. I think officially designating a 'B+' ride is a great idea. And if it is a 'drop' ride, people can try it and if they can't hang on, they can be picked up by the next ride. I agree with Al.

I think this is a fantastic suggestion. The most fun I have had riding this summer was well some members where preparing for Dove creek and the Tuesday and Friday rides where lively and more combative.

I agree that there should be a group that is no drop, but feel like providing the B riders a challenge will continue to improve the group as a whole.

[JohnT]

We're a club with Olympians and beginners. How amazing is that! Not surprising that we have to manage the group from time to time. Thanks Barton,

JT

[Andrew]

This is a good discussion and a sign of a healthy club. I would like to put in my 2 cents.

This is a great inclusive club and should stay that way, at the high and lower end of speed.

As noted, we must ensure that all riders, especially new riders should have a good experience.

We have an obligation to each other to ensure everybody gets to coffee or home safely and so on the no drop rides in particular, we need to ensure all bodies are accounted for. This can be a dangerous sport in the dark wet and cold and we should know where everybody is and communicate to each other if we are peeling off home early.

The A ride should stay a hammer ride

The B2 and C rides should remain no drop rides and people should appropriately seed themselves (possibly with some gentle suggestions from team leaders if they are out of position).

I would suggest that the B1 B+ ride be changed from a no drop to a drop ride but with different parameters than the A ride.

Some of the best rides of the season were the 'Josh' rides where the objective was to ride 50 kms as fast as humanly possible. The idea was to get everybody home with the same time and we all finished with the same time, kind of like a team time trial. The riders were all good A riders, but Josh Bryson and Dylan (among others) were just that much quicker, and as a result they did the bulk of the pulling, and guys like me did shorter pulls and got out of the way and hung on for dear life, eyes balls bleeding (trying to tap my heals saying.. there is no place like home, there is not place like home..). The result was we all got a maximum work out over 1h20mins riding and felt spent, we all contributed, it felt like a team, and we gained some skills. It was a bit stressful having to hang on to these monsters as you didn't want them waiting for you. This forced everybody to be disciplined about measuring effort to get to the end with the group.

I would propose the same type of ride as a B+ ride with team time trial concept, with work spread out based on fitness and what is left in the tank and where your skills lie.

While a drop ride, you won't pimp/drop you fellow riders by ripping off the top of ASH road/Cadboro Bay/KGT like the A's do. Rather you would ease over the top of the hills, look for your crew of riders and keep rolling, but there would be no significant (i.e foot down) waiting. There may or may not be waiting for mechanicals. Those who are falling off would have to struggle back on, ride alone or circle back to the B2 group (and try again next time), and the survivors will keep the pace up and try to set a new best time like we did on the Josh rides. I think having this as a drop ride would be important to keep this a true B+ (even A-) ride, and provide a challenge for those not yet strong enough. There may be times when the group decides that it is a no drop ride, especially when it is a small group of regulars.

In the A's we always get great workouts. On the other hand, it may not always be the case in the Bs for some riders on some rides. I think this would ensure a big workout for the stronger B riders, would provide an opportunity for up and coming riders to challenge themselves in a friendly environment before testing the A's out, and may make for a more pleasant B2 ride.

For the A's, there are also time when you feel like a workout, but not an A ride, and this would be a nice fall back for the A riders.

Over time, we could also send out two groups that race each other independently, like we did earlier in the summer. We could have a small group off the front and a big group chasing three minutes behind, we could send the juniors out front and force them to work together....

Clearly there are times when we are going to want to ride a sensible steady pace and not everybody wants to race VCL, Masters or go to do the tour de Sardinia, but I think this is worth trying out, see if we like it and if it works well, and if not, we could try seeding on speed and some of the other good ideas noted above.

[barton bourassa]

I think a B+ drop ride is a great idea, maybe! But that is just me. I think winter will take care of any need for wild and crazy speed. We have a pretty small group these days, maybe 20 on Friday and 25 or so on Tuesday with small A and small B groups. It is winter, time to settle in a bit and recover from a long summer of riding and racing. Time to start thinking about base miles for next year? Save your legs for those long, long rides on the weekend?
Time to use caution and ride with the conditions.
The idea of a B+ drop ride is something that should maybe wait till spring? More day light in the early hours and better conditions, oh ya, and more riders!

[Lister Farrar]

I like the idea. As long as it's balanced with the option for a no-drop b ride.

For those doing gran fondos and ironman tris, LSD (long slow distance) makes some sense. For those with 2-4 rides a week to get fit, or even doing Sardinia with all it's climbing and accelerations to stay with the pack, not so much.

For those training for cross; nationals is still 6 weeks away, and a 60-70 minute threshold jam is just right. And Pan Am track trials are in late January; there are few LSD rides in those programs.

The only hesitation i heard about the more structured and intense July rides was the feeling that everyone had to to do it. If we make it clear that we have a b group that is going to take it easier, that should cover that.