how about Tolmie laps for the "bunch" and lets have newbies or C riders do Caddy Bay then Tolmie so that we dont kick the crap out of them by making them do too much at the start?
Peter
Input wanted. Change to Wednesday's Hills.
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Lister Farrar
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- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:19 pm
Re: Input wanted. Change to Wednesday's Hills.
Just a thought on hill workout design. The theory behind interval training is to choose the intensity and duration to address a specific ability, and have enough rest to be able to do it again.
In most training for aerobic power, anaerobic power (peak and duration), etc., if rests get too short, intensity suffers. So if you're training for your ability to challenge on hills (or even just hang on one more lap), your sprint or your max breakaway-establishing power, for example, if you're not rested, the intensity of the next interval will be too low to improve that as much.
Of course, if the objective is just mentally getting ready to take part in a death march ride around mt newton, trundling around mt tolmie at what ever pace you can manage might help, but it won't raise your ceiling in those areas as much as if you rested between hills.
The rest interval required to go really hard again is surprisingly long, depending on fitness. Standard 2-4 minute aerobic power interval uses a 1:1 ratio. A lot longer than our group does on Caddy Bay in the current format (Sinclair is better if you use the top flat to recover and don;t turn until the top). The current rest interval is probably less than half, IE 2:1 or 3:1. Again, character building, but not really specific to aerobic pwoer. One advantage of Caddy Bay is you can go really hard to the top, go easy a few telephone poles at the top, then turn and roll down to get the rest, to go really hard again.
There is a down side. Intervals this intense are mentally harder. This could use some ingenuity in workout design. Perhaps a mid-pack rider (or maybe one each for A B and C) could ensure a long enough rest with a watch, the others wait for them to start, but all 'race' to the top? The competition might make the intensity easier to produce, and the rest could clear the fog before the next one. Some 'pack' implications tho.
In most training for aerobic power, anaerobic power (peak and duration), etc., if rests get too short, intensity suffers. So if you're training for your ability to challenge on hills (or even just hang on one more lap), your sprint or your max breakaway-establishing power, for example, if you're not rested, the intensity of the next interval will be too low to improve that as much.
Of course, if the objective is just mentally getting ready to take part in a death march ride around mt newton, trundling around mt tolmie at what ever pace you can manage might help, but it won't raise your ceiling in those areas as much as if you rested between hills.
The rest interval required to go really hard again is surprisingly long, depending on fitness. Standard 2-4 minute aerobic power interval uses a 1:1 ratio. A lot longer than our group does on Caddy Bay in the current format (Sinclair is better if you use the top flat to recover and don;t turn until the top). The current rest interval is probably less than half, IE 2:1 or 3:1. Again, character building, but not really specific to aerobic pwoer. One advantage of Caddy Bay is you can go really hard to the top, go easy a few telephone poles at the top, then turn and roll down to get the rest, to go really hard again.
There is a down side. Intervals this intense are mentally harder. This could use some ingenuity in workout design. Perhaps a mid-pack rider (or maybe one each for A B and C) could ensure a long enough rest with a watch, the others wait for them to start, but all 'race' to the top? The competition might make the intensity easier to produce, and the rest could clear the fog before the next one. Some 'pack' implications tho.
Lister
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
"We're jammin', jammin',
And I hope you like jammin', too."
(Bob Marley)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QdwYY9rZL4
Re: Input wanted. Change to Wednesday's Hills.
If you want to get into doing the intervals as well as possible for maximal output, its really a function of your body's recovery, not a function of time, and it varies from individual to individual, and also varies during the course of a given interval workout.
So, heartrate is a better measurement method for establishing rest duration than just time. Recovery 60% of max heartrate is often used as a marker to indicate that the body is ready to do another interval.
I've always noticed when doing recovery based intervals in the 1-3 minute "on" range, my required recovery time will increase during the first 5 intervals. The first couple/few intervals are almost always shorter rest time required than the interval itself.
Still, one thing often said about high intensity interval training for peak power with lots of rest is that it makes you very good at delivering peak power intervals from a well rested state, the direct body adaption to the training it's done. It doesn't necessarily increase your ability to deliver a power interval from an already aerobic/anaerobic state.
The fully rested scenario doesn't happen often in a bike race. The ability to push your body into the red from an already close to anaerobic state and then "recover" while still at close to threshold effort is much more like an actual race situation. You need to be able to do this both physically and mentally. A lot of cyclists use racing to get that last bit of "fitness" for this reason. You can always go out and do intervals by yourself and have complete control of your rest times, but I see some the main value of doing our morning hills as a group is to get yourself in a situation where you will continually push yourself that extra couple % because there are people around you you are tying to stay with. You may not maximize your one-off record time to climb the hill when starting fully rested, as the rest intervals are not ideal, but you gain the direct physical training and mental ability to hang in a race longer.
So, heartrate is a better measurement method for establishing rest duration than just time. Recovery 60% of max heartrate is often used as a marker to indicate that the body is ready to do another interval.
I've always noticed when doing recovery based intervals in the 1-3 minute "on" range, my required recovery time will increase during the first 5 intervals. The first couple/few intervals are almost always shorter rest time required than the interval itself.
Still, one thing often said about high intensity interval training for peak power with lots of rest is that it makes you very good at delivering peak power intervals from a well rested state, the direct body adaption to the training it's done. It doesn't necessarily increase your ability to deliver a power interval from an already aerobic/anaerobic state.
The fully rested scenario doesn't happen often in a bike race. The ability to push your body into the red from an already close to anaerobic state and then "recover" while still at close to threshold effort is much more like an actual race situation. You need to be able to do this both physically and mentally. A lot of cyclists use racing to get that last bit of "fitness" for this reason. You can always go out and do intervals by yourself and have complete control of your rest times, but I see some the main value of doing our morning hills as a group is to get yourself in a situation where you will continually push yourself that extra couple % because there are people around you you are tying to stay with. You may not maximize your one-off record time to climb the hill when starting fully rested, as the rest intervals are not ideal, but you gain the direct physical training and mental ability to hang in a race longer.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.